Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The Gift of Chaos psychic power allows you to try and turn an enemy model within 6" of your Sorcerer into Chaos Spawn. If that enemy model was in base to base contact, then the Spawn begins its rich and fulfilling new life engaged in combat. However there's the problem of what happens otherwise, when the Spawn model is not engaged but possibly within 1" of an enemy model, or even even in base to base contact with that model because it is on a 40mm base having Spawned from a model with a 25mm base. Is the Spawn placed 1" away from enemy models? Are enemy models packed in tightly moved to make space for the Spawn in their midst? What happens?

I would follow the rules for placing a greater deamon as it is the closest analogy by far. Place the model as close as possible to its former bodies location that is at least 1" away from any enemies.

It can assault after it's been created right? Maybe i don't fully understand the question but if your opponent is trying to say it can't be placed that's quite a load. B)

I would assume that since it states that if your target was in base to base, the spawn shows up engaged, would also indicate that if the target was not in base to base, then the spawn would need to show up unengaged. Since you need to be 1" away from the enemy to be unengaged, this would seem to indicate that the model should be placed 1" away from enemies and as close to the spot the target model occupied as possible. Remember, other than the special rules stated there, there are only a couple of ways to engage an enemy in assault (charging, consolidating, etc.) and if the rules don't tell you that you can do something, you can't.

paidinfull: It's not that I have any opponent saying it can't be placed, I'm just looking for well-justified opinions about how it should be placed given the restrictions that are stated in the rule. Phoenix and AnSteWe make good points about what it permitted under the rule, and what rules are most similar to the creation of Spawn under Gift of Chaos. Basically I want to be clear on the rules before negotiating with my gaming group how we're actually going to play it.

However, the Gifting of Spawn seems to differ from the Summoning of Greater Daemons. Firstly if the model being replaced is in base to base contact then the Spawn is automatically engaged, while the Greater Daemon is placed 1" away from enemy models (the Greater Daemon is repositioned, the Spawn isn't).

Similarly the trouble I'm having is the general principle stated by Phoenix ("if the rules don't tell you that you can do something, you can't"). The rules don't tell us what to do when the Spawned model is not in base to base contact. They don't, for example, tell us something similar to the Greater Daemon Summoning rules.

I would place the model in the place of the other model. If that places it in base to base than for all intensive purposes i would treat it as it 'spawned' into HtH.

In my opinion the chaos player benefits if it does not spawn into hand to hand, you could charge, move the spawn away, etc.

It might be a bit more of a bend then you or your game group is comfortable with, but how would you feel about mounting the spawn on a 25mm base? That should solve the problem, but it does contradict the "use the base it came with" rule. *shrug*

That's a good point. The Spawn could just assault the unit in the Assault phase, or assault a unit that hasn't been blasted by shooting, and won't obscure shooting by suddenly engaging a target in combat.

In replacing the model and counting base to base from its new 40mm base is the problem I'm seeing here. The possibility of going from a 60mm or 25mm base to a 40mm base could do some weird stuff. Particularly if the Spawn is created in a tightly pack unit of 25mm based.

I think your solution is the most easily playable version, and I think I'd suggest it for play, but I'm still worried about what the actual rules say (or don't, as the case may be).

Phoenix:

I would assume that since it states that if your target was in base to base, the spawn shows up engaged, would also indicate that if the target was not in base to base, then the spawn would need to show up unengaged.

That's a fallacy, and I'm surprised Nurglitch hasn't pointed it out. For it to hold, the rule would have to state that "the spawn shows up engaged" if and only if the target was in btb. That this happens "if" the target was in btb does not allow us to draw a conclusion as to what happens when it is not.

In this case, I cannot see anything about being within 1" that would impinge upon your permission to place the Spawn on the battlefield. The 1" rule applies to movement, not sudden appearance or whatever. Unless one can show that appearing in the manner the Spawn does is movement, there is no reason why you would be unable to deploy a Spawn within 1" or even in btb even when the target was not in btb. You would then consult the existing rules to see what happens when a model is within 1" of an enemy or in btb. In the former case, nothing in particular happens; in the latter, the models involved are, by the definition on BGB pg. 38, engaged.

Phoenix: There's an idea, mount the sucker on three layered bases: 25mm on top of 40mm on top of 60mm. Like Russian Dolls. So a Monster on a 60mm base would be replaced by a Spawn on a 60mm base, and just subtract the bigger bases for anything smaller. Maybe default to 40mm as the opportunity becomes available.

tegeus-Cromis: I thought I did point it out ("Similarly the trouble I'm having is the general principle stated by Phoenix ("if the rules don't tell you that you can do something, you can't"). The rules don't tell us what to do when the Spawned model is not in base to base contact"). I said something like: "Yeah, good point, but my problem is that the law of the excluded middle doesn't apply here." 'Course, I was trying to do it politely...

Likewise it seems kind of strange that they rules would specifically mention that the Spawn would be engaged in that specific case if it was just the same as the general case for being engaged (which, as you say, does seem to cover it).

You, polite? Will wonders never cease? Next it'll be Stelek. (Or me.)

It is strange, but it wouldn't be the first time, would it? It works by RAW, and it would be stranger still, you must agree, for the outcome to be different in a situation where the Spawn is in btb, but the replaced model wasn't. That would just be bizarre.

I don't think I would agree that it would be strange for a Spawn to be engaged or not where it is placed in base to base contact when the Gifted model was not. I don't know whether that would happen, and therefore it's difficult to agree that it would be strange (after all, it wouldn't be strange if it never happened).

That's another thing the rules don't seem to cover and which it would be useful to solve in this thread: whether there can be a situation where the replaced model wasn't in base to base contact and the Spawn is.

I think I'm going to root around in the Codex a bit more.

I meant strange in terms of fluff and common sense (mind, I'm not offering this as an argument for it playing out this way, but as a reason for my being glad that, by RAW, it does ). Since the Spawn is what's doing the fighting, it seems only natural that what determines whether or not it's in CC should be its position, not the previous position of the unfortunate being it displaced.

I think I did address that question, my conclusion being that nothing would prevent that from happening. I don't have the Chaos dex, however, so maybe you'll find something that can shed further light on this.

FWIW, my group places the spawn model wherever the target model was.

If the old model was in B2B but on a larger base, the spawn must, obviously, still come in @ B2B.
If the old model was not in B2B but on a smaller base, and too tightly packed to allow the model to get in without being 1"= away, We simply place the spawn where the model was, contacting as few enemy models as possible. If necessary, the enemy models move out of the way for the Spawn (they are taken aback by their comrade's sudden transformation), so that the base fits.

This makes it the least powerful option of all.

If the model comes into contact in B2B, then:
It does not gain the benefit of charge
It does not have any options on WHO it charges (which could be vastly different fighting IG, if you come in someplace ele, so as to avoid B2B contact)
It has the potential to obscure further shooting (the unit now counts as locked in combat, so cannot be shot at or through)
and
By contacting as few enemy models as possible, you potentiall reduce the model's kill zone.

We think this seems to best follow suit with using the "least powerful option."


Eric

A side point, but aren't Spawns S&P? They would not get a benefit for charging anyway (other than choice of where to go and other obvious things like that).

Totally forgot that S&P doesn't benefit from charging.