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I was planning on putting this list together for tournament play and was curious what everyone thought.

There are a few modifications that I am considering making and would like input on:

Do I swap Eldrad for Asurmen?
Do I swap the 2nd Farseer for Asurmen?
Do I drop some dire avengers and the 2nd Farseer so I have Eldrad + Asurmen?

The list only has 6 scoring units which is pretty fragile if you ask me but it can be pretty nasty.

Now the benefits to the 3 variants are all minor but adding Asurmen makes it pretty fluffy and I like that a lot. But adding him I lose some of my casting ability which the list is kind of dependent on, at least... it makes it that much more nasty.

Here is the original list
HQ
Eldrad - 210pt
Farseer - 153pt
Doom, Guide, Singing Spear, Stones, Jet Bike

He is intended to fly behind the falcons casting Guide on them so they hit with 3 S8 AP2 hits against whatever, and then casting Doom on a unit so the Harlies can get out and charge.

Troops
10x Dire Avengers - 157pt
Exarch, Diresword + Pistol, BladeStorm
1x Wave Serpent - 140pt
TL Shuriken Canon, Shuriken Canon, Vectored Engine, Spirit Stone

10x Dire Avengers - 157pt
Exarch, Diresword + Pistol, BladeStorm
1x Wave Serpent - 140pt
TL Shuriken Canon, Shuriken Canon, Vectored Engine, Spirit Stone

These are my anti horde troops. I have had great success with charging forward casting Guide + Doom and wiping out a unit. The chances of me getting Guide off in there is slim but Doom should be no problem. I plan on stickin Eldrad with one of these units and having him jump off turn 1 after a 12" move. This way he can cast Doom twice for the Harlies and a 3rd spell elsewhere. Against MeQ I anticipate about 5 kills from the bladestorm and then a charge to finish them off. I anticipate killing 10 GeQ/Orks from it as well should they get their 5+ cover save.

Elites
6x Harlies - 176pt
5 Kiss, Troupe Master, Shadow Seer

6x Harlies - 176pt
5 Kiss, Troupe Master, Shadow Seer

"Flying Circus." Pretty beardy, cheesy falcons get them to where they need tp be to assault and Doom allows them to be that much more effective. 3 rends on average, 2 PW kills, 8 more wounds.

Heavy
1x Falcon - 220pt
Bright Lance, Pulse Laser, Shuriken Canon, Holofield, Vector, Spirit Stone

1x Falcon - 220pt
Bright Lance, Pulse Laser, Shuriken Canon, Holofield, Vector, Spirit Stone

Pure cheddar at the moment. Enough AP2 to nuke 3 termies/broadsides/DP a turn a piece. Shuriken Canon adds another 3 S6 shots. Capable of dropping off the harlies where they need to be.

So there is the list. Now adding Asurmen brings a lot of cool stuff to the table. He makes one unit of Dire Avengers Fearless, has reroll to hit in close combat with a power weapon, a 2+/4+ and reduces attacks against that unit by 1. Pretty cool stuff. If I swapped Eldrad for him, I wouldn't have the ability to Doom 3 seperate units (2 from Eldrad + 1 from Farseer) and I could now only Doom 1 unit which lowers the overall effectiveness of the army. To make up the points for this I drop 1 (total) rending upgrade on each of the harlie squads, and blade storm on the unit he joins... the abilities don't stack. That exarch however takes a PW and a shimmershield so the rest of his unit has a 5+ Inv in hand to hand... which they will undoubtedly be in. This configuration is interesting but I think only casting Doom once per turn really hurts this list. Psychic hood and all that. Another big draw back is that i no longer have runes of warding to counter enemy psykers.

The other option i have is to drop the Farseer and take Asurmen and Eldrad. This is pretty nasty but very expensive. To get the points I drop the exarch from one squad all together (49pts) the 2 kisses (8pts) and the Shuriken upgrades on the falcons (20pts). I am starting to lean heavily towards this option as its pretty fluffy... elite troops and all that plus 2 big nasty characters.

What do you guys think?
The original list?
Drop Eldrad for Asurmen?
Go crazy expensive and take BOTH Eldrad and Asurmen?

Troops make up 31%, HQ 25%, Heavy 24%, Elite 20%

Drop Eldrad. The Farseer is enough, he's good in a supporting role.
I'd take 3 Vypers with combo scatterlaser, shuricannon.

Unfortunately I don't have enough Vypers to try what you've suggested however I'm not a fan of vypers though I have only run 1 and not 3.

Having Doom cast 2x instead of 1x does make a big difference for the low strength (S3) of my Harlies and Dire Avengers in Hand to Hand

Then I opt for two Doomseers on jetbikes, both equipped with singing spears.

That is a pretty great idea and one i had not considered.

It's ridiculous but I really wish I could still take Asurmen and 2 Seers. how broken would that be?

This list is about as far from beardy as it gets.

Looks like a standard eldar army, ready to be spanked.

Vulnerable to lots of lists. I think even my crappy unupgraded marine drop pod list would give you a hard time.

With a model count this low, there better be some jetbikes in there or your T3 crap save guys are going down as soon as someone draws a bead on 'em.

Cool glad you don't think its cheesy.

What lists do you see it having a hard time against?

An All Drop Pod army is too inconsistent to be of any real concern for any army IMO.

The list is very fragile, however, so you have that right.

Dark Eldar will shoot you off the table.

So will IG, Marines, and Tau.

Mech forces will have a field day watching you bounce off of their armor.

Nidzilla will probably take all you have to offer and thank you for the speed bump.

I just see way too many points in anti-horde and not enough in anti-armor/MC. What happens when the serpents get shot down turn 1? What do you do?

Very true about IG and possibly DE. The DE I usually see are Webway Wych cults and focus more on hand to hand but crumble to dedicated consistent fire.

My original plan for facing IG was to rush a flank and do my best to limit shots via LOS the chances of dropping the serpents turn 1 is there but it's also pretty small. Against IG with 9 lascannons for example. 5 hit 3 glance because its strength is reduced to 8 which leaves me at a 50% chance of 1 of my Serpents getting dropped. If i moved 24" the chances of me being able to get out and assault with the rest of my army is incredibly high.

In respect to the Tau I happen to play Tau and don't think it will be as brutal as you point out. 6 S8 shots plus 18 S6 shots mean I have a chance to do some serious hitting as well. If I stop mech shooting I can pick and choose my targets.

Indirect Fire(basilisk), Auto Canons and Deathrain will work wonders against this list, but I can also make them target priority number one.

In your opinion what would you recommend adjusting in the list?

Theory hammer is just Theory hammer, unfortunately.

Yeah theory hammer is a bit of takin a piss isn't it?

B)

I've only played Eldar since the New Codex and never ran Harlies, however I've had great success with a mixed army that used a lot of specialized units.

Eldrad, Avatar, 2units of avengers, Banshees + Scorpions in serpents, Fire dragons in a falcon, war walker with scatter lasers, and a wraithlord

With this list I wanted to make the falcon a little nastier and add a sense of duality with another falcon.

Sekai,
do you agree that this list is too fragile or do you not like the list at all? what are your thoughts?

There is no point to the shadowseers in my opinion, if your going to put them in vehicles.

The shadowseer makes the person roll, but by the time you want to get out of your falcon, you'll probably assault him that turn.

Asuramen isn't all that great, unfortunately. Ultimately, it's your list, and everyone has different play styles

I'm glad you brought up the shadowseer. I had thought about that... but you know what? I have to take him if I want to have plasma grenades. Sucks huh? The harlies will get crushed if I can't get their initiative bonus or I happen to roll terribly.

The shadowseer gives the squad veil of tears and hallucinogen grenades (sight roll and plasma grenades).

Yeah the best phoenix lord IMO is Muegan Ra. You think the second farseer for the S9 attacks against vehicles and added casting? I just didn't want to get screwed if I ran up against a psychic hood so I thought Asurmen would mitigate that some what... and i selected him because he made a unit fearless and gave them both bladestorm and defend.

Get some warlocks as your second HQ. Might be a good idea

Hmmm... or drop the 2nd HQ for a Fire Prism and upgrade the Wave Serpents with Bright Lances...

I would drop the power weapon on the Harlequins and just give them all kisses. That should be more then affective. Plus kisses can hurt monsterous creatures and vehicles and pretty much anthing, but a PW can only hurt infranty models. Just my two cents.

I like the list, and think it's pretty functional. Eldar mech can get spanked by all sorts of lists... if not played effectively.

First off, drop the bright lances on the Falcons. They're not going to get to shoot much if the Falcons are doing their troop-delivery job. Paradoxically, they will be much more useful on the Serpents. Twin-linking helps, and they're the only high-strength weapon on those birds, so you're not wasting them. I know they aren't supporting the DA's mission directly when firing at vehicles, but it just works out better that way. When you _do_ use them on the same squad DA's are dump-and-spraying, they punch right through Marine armor, doing as much damage as the shuricannon would have done.

Scatterlasers would be a good replacement for the BLs on the Falcons.

Now that that's out of the way- Yes, two 3-elf bike squads could really help you with light vehicles, horde infantry, and tying up heavy weapons. You might drop Eldrad and replace him with 2 or 3 bike squads with shuricannon. This will add 2 fast scoring units, and reduce your number of Kill Points in 5th edition (if KPs make it into the final draft, that is). More importantly, you've upped your model count and ability to pick off the spiky bits of hordes.

If you insist on two HQ units, I agree on dropping Eldrad. He's not nearly as effective in a mounted list as many of your other options. Asurmen would indeed give your Avengers some more staying power. I use him in Mech Eldar versus shooty Marines, and do well.

Speaking of which, if you're running 2X harlie squads, it's usually worth it to go for SS/PW and Defend on your Avengers, to make them a more successful tarpit. Asurmen will give you at least one squad with Defend already bought. Upgrading the Exarch of that squad to SS/PW will help. You could skimp on upping the second squad if you're short on points, but I find the incremental cost worth it in Mech. You only have so many infantry, best to make them potent.

Given the rumored change of SMF to a 5+ save for vehicles in 5th edition, switching your bike Seer to Fortune and Doom is probably more useful than Guide and Doom. Fortune will be effective in keeping your tanks up (and thus effectively increasing shooting power to boot), and later in making your invulnerable saves in CC worth much more. Guide will really only serve you in the first couple turns.

So- drop Eldrad, add two bike squads with shuricannon, Defend and PW/SS to the Avengers, and scatterlasers on the Falcons if you can squeeze them in. Just my $.02.

Good luck, and don't listen tot he naysayers.

Rending is great when it works but I don't like relying only on rending. The PW ensures I can get some wounds at S4, especially if the unit is doomed it will go farther then the rending.

all rending 4*6=24 attacks so a possible of 4 rends on average.

4*5 = 20 so a possible 3 rends on average not much of a drop but the power weapon gives me 5 attacks 3 hits possible 2 wounds so I can go a bit farther where as if the 5 attacks were rending i still would only get 4 rends on average.

Its just averages but i am paying 30 points... if I dropped those points I could upgrade the Wave serpents with Brightlances.

@savnock

wow that's some well informed advice!
thanks!

I know it may seem ill informed but I am strictly making this list for 4th edition... I can't see making a list for 5th until i have those rules in my hand. I'm just that kind of guy.

I really dig on the SS+PW as I have already modeled them this way. The spear is just really cool looking. And giving the whole squad a 5+ in HTH? Really!?

I'm not crazy about the eldar jetbikes however... I currently don't own any of the models... i can change that of course... but I don't think they would work for me.

I am going to crunch some points moving the Bright lances like you suggested and see about what I can do if I remove Eldrad all together.

So I made some revisions after a lot of thinking and while we've established Eldrad is sweet for the points I'm going to drop him.
I don't think he will be as effective in a moving mech list such as this.

Asurmen - 230pt
he stays as it's fluffy and he compliments the Avengers

Farseer - 153pt
Doom, Guide, Bike, Spirit, Spear
I think the original concept of flying behind the the falcon and casting is the way to go. The S9 spear will help in anti Tank as well

6x Harlies - 162pt
6x Kiss, Shadow

6x Harlies - 162pt
6x Kiss, Shadow
I dropped the Power weapon and went with all rending. I felt these points were needed elsewhere and 24 rending attacks should do some damage. The shadowseer is required to have plasma grenades

10x Dire Avengers - 147pt
Exarch, PW + SS
I figured since they would be in HtH giving them a 5+ Inv was a great way to go. These guys would work well in conjunction with the Harlies reducing the number of attacks against either unit. This squad will be joined by
1x Wave Serpent - 165pt
TLBL, Vector, Spirit
I figured the Anti Tank Twinlinked Brightlance was better suited for the wave serpent. I also have the ability to effect 4 vehicles reliably instead of 2.

10x Dire Avengers - 177pt
Exarch, PW+SS, Bladestorm, Defend
Mirroring their brothers, these guys are also going to be fairly resilient in HTH reducing incoming attacks and having a 5+ inv
1x Wave Serpent - 165pt
TLBL, Vector, Spirit
Same Serpent as intended for AT

1x Falcon - 195pt
Shuriken Canon, Shuriken Canon, Holofields, Vector, Spirit
I realized that instead of taking a Scatter laser and adding 1 shot with an increased range I could add 3 shots by upgrading the catapults so thats what I did. This vehicle is now intended more to the harlies.

1x Falcon - 195pt
Shuriken Canon, Shuriken Canon, Holofields, Vector, Spirit


I still only have 6 fragile scoring units
I now have 7 S8+ shots at range for anti tank from 5 different units which I think will help a lot against Mech Lists.

Thanks for all the input so far.
B)

Asurmen is overpriced for what he can achieve.
First you have to bring him into action and then he has only S4.
Drop him and apply the usual DA 'Serpent of fury' tactics.
The DA squads shouldn't get assaulted after bladestorming.
Next turn they embark and reposition.

I'm not a fan of giving a Farseer two psychic powers as they can kill him.

Asurmen isn't a character killer he's a frontline fighter.
He will be riding in a serpent in this case (they hold 12) so he will be right in the thick of it. He is essentially a tricked out overpriced Exarch. I'm fine with that. B)

I did however make a revision with 2 farseers just with Doom however on bikes and that list will probably be more tournament effective.

Asurmen is over priced in the 4th ed but come the 5th he's alot better for the points ... but if i'm having a phoenix lord i go for Maugan Ra in a unit of harlequins ... he's tougher to kill then a wrathlord
(incase you don't know)
he has the crack shot, fast shot power and acute senses (which in the 4th ed is passed on to any one he joins)

hes armed with only the Maugetar but this is a Range 36" S:6 AP:5 Assault 4 Pinning & Rending but also an Executioner so he effectivly has a S:6 power weapon