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WHich list do you use? Kabal or Wych.


What the pros and cons of each?

Kabal, because most of the time you only need to use two or three squads of wyches any way and thier is nothing else competing with them in the Elite section. More than two squads of wyches seems redundant unless you are commiting to straight assault lists. I rather have the balance of 3-4 sniping warrior squads and 1-2 raider squads with blaster equiped warrior ect.

I've have used and like both lists. The wych list is a focused melee list, while the Kabal list can be a little more balanced list, or can make a focused shooting list. Both can work well.

I've gravitated towards the Wych army list more often than the Kabal list. It's purely personal choice. You can still get first turn assaults pretty easily with the Wych list. I typically run 4 squads of wyches with a good amount of gear (including Terrorfexes and Blasters, succubus with Agonizer & Combat Drugs), all in Raiders (with Horrorfexes); 4 units of Warp Beasts; and a geared up Archite accompaning one of the squads. I do decently with it. As with all army lists, it struggles against some armies, but generally it does pretty well. I pick an end of the army and slam the wyches in as hard as possible. I use the Horrorfexes to attempt to pin nearby units that aren't going to be assaulted by the wyches.

Ultimately you are going to have to decide what type of army you like to play and what type of army you prefer to play. Above is just my preferences of the army.

StoneFoxx

StoneFoxx wrote:4 units of Warp Beasts

Warp Beasts are 0-1.

Wych Cult, Mnemoch.

So far as I know, Wych Cult has no effect on Warp Beasts.

The Dark Eldar codex update, where the rules for wych cults are given lays out their special rules. It's on page 2 of the PDF. You may take as many packs of warp beasts as you have squads of wyches.

EDIT: Removed redundancy

Link? I can't find any such PDF on the GW website.

i go for the kabal as they give you lots of room for sniper squads and meat raider squads to occupy the enemy while at the same time having enough slots free for wyches and the like

That's probably because the US GW stores really stinks.

Try This

EDIT: To correct myself from sounding like Peter Sellers in Murder by Death... I can't type tonight.

Well that quite changes everything, doesn't it? Thanks!

How long has this been out, anyways?

Mnemoch wrote:Well that quite changes everything, doesn't it? Thanks!

How long has this been out, anyways?

It's in the Chapter Approved 2004 book, so at least four years.

Mnemock, sorry, I haven't been watching the thread. They got it right though. I fielded 4 units of Wyches (3x10 & 1x9 for the Lord to join), Raiders for each squad, lots of gear for the characters (including Terrorfexes for them all), and gear for the Raiders (including Night Shields & Horrorfexes). Then 4 units of Warp beasts. They usually got blasted by the end of the game, but at 75 points per unit, they can't be beat. I played that army a lot, and did very well with it. The horrorfexes were great for pinning nearby units to allow the Wyches to 'work' uninterupted.

StoneFoxx

You field 75 pt Warpbeast squads? I thought the idea was to field them at min size, so you get a dirt cheap Agoniser on a squad which is about as unrewarding to shoot at as it gets. I don't know, do you find the beasts themselves to be worth the additional points? It doesn't seem like it to me.

You field 75 pt Warpbeast squads? I thought the idea was to field them at min size, so you get a dirt cheap Agoniser on a squad which is about as unrewarding to shoot at as it gets. I don't know, do you find the beasts themselves to be worth the additional points? It doesn't seem like it to me.

I'd expect better from you t-C. 12 point, S5, beasts with 3 attacks on the charge that make your still dirt cheap agonizer more survivable are --yes-- worth it.

-LE037

I don't consider 24 points for two extra T3 6+ ablatives to be a worthwhile investment to a 15 point weapon. Lots of units can wipe them out in a turn of shooting whether the squad is 6-strong or 4-strong. I'd rather keep them as cheap as possible than add more bodies.

I didn't know the Beasts were S5, though. Where do they get it from? I thought they were S4 and 4 (not 3) attacks on the charge.

Umm. Nothing. They don't get S5 from anything. My bad.
Oh, wow, I had it all wrong. They have 3 attacks base.

Looking at the units defensive capabilities is a moot point; they're practically non-existent. But 24 points for an additional 8 I5 S4 attacks is definitely worth it.
Each beast kills .33 OAM. The master kills .75 OAM. The disparity isn't so large that they're just a delivery system.

-LE037

I guess, but they still dilute the cost-effectiveness of the unit. I don't play DE myself, so maybe things look different from the other side of the table, but I can think of plenty of things your average DE list could add with 96 pts that would give me more cause to worry than an extra 2 Warp Beasts per squad.

Yeah, I field them in maximum numbers in a Wych army. 75 points for a mobile light melee unit isn't bad at all. I typically don't sweat the extra 24 points per unit.

The idea with the Wych army I field is that *everything* comes barreling down the opponents throat. I deploy the Warp Beast up front. I don't typically care if they get shot at (in fact I prefer it). The Raiders full of Wyches are deployed close to the opposition, but behind cover (if possible). If the opponent takes time shooting at a unit of Warp beasts instead of the Raiders, I'm happy. If they ignore the Warp Beast, they are sent forward into melee to teach him a lesson (typically you can deploy 18" away from the enemy, so 1st turn charge). The extra 8 attacks (or the extra casualties the unit can take) are well worth the points to me.

Remember I field 4 full strength units. It's not like they can blast it and its the only one on the table.

StoneFoxx

I've been a longtime Wych CUlt player myself. At 2K I normally run Leltih w/5 wych Retinue, 4 Wych Squads, 1-2 Warp Beast packs, 0-1 RJB Tankhunter squads, 2 17 Warrior WWP squads a Sniper squad and 1-2 Ravagers.

I typically start with only my WWP and sniper squads on the table. Everything else is held back. It will pack a helluva punch if my reserves don't come on the board piecemeal and I've either won or placed second with Best General in just about every RTT I've taken the list to.

One thing folks forget about with WB Packs is that they are a cheap objective grabber or table quarter contesting unit. Not too many armies can spend 75 points to get a scoring unit that doesn't take up any force org slots in a list.

I favor raider/warrior spam based around kabals.

Everyone else seems to do Wyches, but I prefer just alpha striking 50-60 marines dead and calling it a game.

Stelek wrote:I favor raider/warrior spam based around kabals.

Everyone else seems to do Wyches, but I prefer just alpha striking 50-60 marines dead and calling it a game.

I agree that it seems odd that most lists focus on Wyches. In my experience they just lack the punch to really serve as a real threat, and die fairly easily to massed attacks. They can last fairly long, so one or two squads supported by characters seem to do pretty well.

What I find interesting is trying to figure out how to get DE to continue to be efficient against MEQs while becoming effective against hordes like the new orks. I'm sure Stelek has some story backing up his "50-60 marines" in a turn story, which should translate over to killing orks, but the rest of us mere mortals have some tough decisions to make on equipping our lists. I've seen Stelek's lists, and while I think the shooty ones are very interesting, I wonder how they would last against orks. A smart ork player will target units that can kill multiple orcs a turn and leave things like DL-armed raiders and such alone until the ed. Sure, they get to buzz around and pick-off a couple boyz every turn, but it's not enough to make a major impact on the game.

There's a lack of real anti-personnel weapons in the DE list, and ork units are so large and resilient that melee is dangerous, too. I'm wondering if warp beasts might become more common? They're fairly cheap, have a good charge range and pump out a large number of attacks on the charge. I'd see them almost like a counter charge units to finish off weakened mobs. 75 points for a full unit, should kill about 5 orks on the charge...I don't think you'll find a more cost-effective method, at least for 1 turn of killing. Most ork units have to get fairly close to work, too, so they should get within charge range on their own.

I'm also interested why I don't see more Haemonulus with destructors in lists? Slap him on a bike or board...seems like it would be a fairly useful unit to have around, especially as it can be effective against both hordes and elite infantry units. Can't play test much right now, so if others have some reasons why they aren't used much I'd like to hear it.

As you can tell, orks are weighing heavily on my mind. DE had a pretty effective template against most other lists, but few lists bring the shear amount of bodies/firepower/melee/speed/morale that the new orks do. The standard DE list may need to change a little, and aside from the regular tried-and-true units everyone knows work, I wondering if the changes in the meta-game will make some of the lesser used units or options more useful? Plus, as other units adjust to deal with orks (adding more anti-horde weapons), DE will need to adjust more. I'm thinking more large blast indirect (whirlwinds) could be annoying, for example.

I massacred my Orks with my Nightshield DE raider list.

It might not seem like much but 30 shots at 36" with Orks unable to reply except with SAG and Lootas makes for a difficult game.

Since all of those shots take out all ork vehicles (pretty much in one single turn) I'm at a loss to explain just how effective that DE list is. I've rarely beaten it myself, it's so over the top. Only my IG version of the list beats it and that really comes down to first turn. First wins.

Anyway I play a wide variety of DE armies, and I have run a warrior horde army against the Orks and done very well. Having 8-12 splinter cannons backed by ravager plasma weapons putting out 9 shots is real trouble for every other horde army out there. 8 24" S4 BS4 AP5 assault shots from multiple warrior units isn't exactly pleasant. Having that multiple times really hurts. Even space marines can't handle it.