Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So this is a bit of a different army, designed solely around 5th edition infiltrate.

Hide your War Walkers, let him deploy.
Put your pathfinders out in cover.
Depending what you are facing, infiltrate the HQ + elites behind cover on a flank he can't really get away from.
Scout forward your walkers (keep in cover) but at long range (on the missile units) and the lances should be lined up against nasty AV14 vehicles at their max range.
Assault a flank with Karandras. Run your scorpions forward. Assault with them next turn.

It'll annoy your opponent no end to have 60 infiltrating Eldar, half shooty death and half assaulty death, setting up after he does...plus scouts hiding from him.

In missions where you only setup scouts, that means everything sets up and the assault units run in from behind and nothing really changes.

Plus your troops are incredibly resilient to enemy shooting.

2000 Pts - Eldar Roster - Ghost Army

1 Phoenix Lord @ 215 Pts
Fearless; Fleet; Disciples; Eternal Warriors; Independent Character
1 PL Karandas @ [215] Pts
Shadowstrike; Stalker; Stealth; Fleet; Scorpion's Bite (SB); Scorpion Chainsword (SCs); Scorpion Claw (SClaw); Plasma Grenades (PG)

9 Striking Scorpions @ 212 Pts
Mandiblaster (Mb); Scorpion Chainsword (SCs); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Plasma Grenades (PG)
1 Striking Scorpion Exarch @ [68] Pts
Shadowstrike; Stalker; Mandiblaster (Mb); Scorpion Chainsword (SCs); Scorpion Claw (SClaw); Plasma Grenades (PG)

9 Striking Scorpions @ 212 Pts
Mandiblaster (Mb); Scorpion Chainsword (SCs); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Plasma Grenades (PG)
1 Striking Scorpion Exarch @ [68] Pts
Shadowstrike; Stalker; Mandiblaster (Mb); Scorpion Chainsword (SCs); Scorpion Claw (SClaw); Plasma Grenades (PG)

9 Striking Scorpions @ 212 Pts
Mandiblaster (Mb); Scorpion Chainsword (SCs); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Plasma Grenades (PG)
1 Striking Scorpion Exarch @ [68] Pts
Shadowstrike; Stalker; Mandiblaster (Mb); Scorpion Chainsword (SCs); Scorpion Claw (SClaw); Plasma Grenades (PG)

9 Pathfinders (Rangers) @ 216 Pts
Fleet; Infiltrate; Move Through Cover; Stealth; Ignore Difficult Terrain; Pathfinder Stealth; Scouts; Pathfinders; Shuriken Pistol (Sp) (x9); Ranger Long Rifle (RLRifle)

9 Pathfinders (Rangers) @ 216 Pts
Fleet; Infiltrate; Move Through Cover; Stealth; Ignore Difficult Terrain; Pathfinder Stealth; Scouts; Pathfinders; Shuriken Pistol (Sp) (x9); Ranger Long Rifle (RLRifle)

9 Pathfinders (Rangers) @ 216 Pts
Fleet; Infiltrate; Move Through Cover; Stealth; Ignore Difficult Terrain; Pathfinder Stealth; Scouts; Pathfinders; Shuriken Pistol (Sp) (x9); Ranger Long Rifle (RLRifle)

1 War Walker Squadron @ 150 Pts
Scouts; Spirit Stone (VSpStn)
1 War Walker @ [75] Pts
Spirit Stone (VSpStn); Missile Launcher (ML); Missile Launcher (ML)
1 War Walker @ [75] Pts
Spirit Stone (VSpStn); Missile Launcher (ML); Missile Launcher (ML)

1 War Walker Squadron @ 150 Pts
Scouts; Spirit Stone (VSpStn)
1 War Walker @ [75] Pts
Spirit Stone (VSpStn); Missile Launcher (ML); Missile Launcher (ML)
1 War Walker @ [75] Pts
Spirit Stone (VSpStn); Missile Launcher (ML); Missile Launcher (ML)

1 War Walker Squadron @ 190 Pts
Scouts; Spirit Stone (VSpStn)
1 War Walker @ [95] Pts
Spirit Stone (VSpStn); Bright Lance (BL); Bright Lance (BL)
1 War Walker @ [95] Pts
Spirit Stone (VSpStn); Bright Lance (BL); Bright Lance (BL)

Total Roster Cost: 1989

Edit: Fixed the dumb smilies.

ya i would hate that 60 enemies infiltrating beside me after i set up everything.

Nice build, Stelek. This would be really fun to play, and a challenge to play against.

One criticism- using Karandras with one of the Scorpion units can save you points (He's already got Shadowstrike). They can also help keep him alive versus other powefists.

I'd also like to point out that subbing in Exodites (using Kroot rules) for at least one unit of Pathfinders and possibly a Scorpion unit could be really helpful against fearless/pin immune horde armies. Equal points of Kroot work out slightly worse than the Scorps against hordes in CC, but the shooting and higher number of bodies balance that out. Kroot Hound packs would be the best choice, were it not for the KP/scoring rules.

Kroots are illegal in the current tournament system.

This means kroot army allies are on the way out the door, with the kroot army list. So that's a no go.

If Karandras uses his shadowstrike ability, he cannot come in by himself. This negates a great deal of his utility. Karandras cannot be protected by scorpions in 5th edition. You can hit who you want. Karandras is there to take the 1 fist hit a turn and suck it up, then kill 5 marines. He can go in alone and take out huge chunks of an enemy army by himself. His only real weakness is a Flyrant fitted for CC with implant attack will likely kill him before he swings.

The pathfinders aren't there to pin you in 5th edition.
They are there to kill you, and not run away when you kill 1/turn for 5 turns with shooting.
5+ for AP1 shots, followed by rending AP1 hits on a 6 to wound. Yeah, pinning is NOT their purpose. Death is.
Being troops, scouting, infiltrating...means they can camp two objectives and still shoot you to pieces. Getting too close? There's a weak scoring unit on another objective you want to grab? They have a guaranteed 7-12" move anytime they want it. Plus a guaranteed 6" charge. Are they uber in CC? No. But 7-9 pathfinders can crunch a couple marines in CC.

Right, I knew about Kroot. This army looks more fun than competitive, so I assumed it was not for tourney play.

By "protecting" Karandras, I mean killing many of the enemy that could get a strike in on him before they get a chance to do so. Without killzones, that's just a matter of reducing the sheer number of possible incoming attacks. When the whole unit can pile attacks on him for 3 KPs, I would think they would choose to strike him rather than the regular Scorps, who will have already attacked.

As for Karandras coming in by himself, I've never found that as useful as bringing him in with a small Scorps unit (still hideable, so 6 max) and then splitting them up if necessary.

The volume of fire on Pathfinders is simply too low to have them be the mainstay of anti-infantry shooting, even with their excellent accuracy. And Orks or gaunts will survive that low fire rate pretty handily- you may kill two 15+ units inbound, but the others will gitcha quick, especially if your infiltrate location is even slightly forwards from your deployment zone. They're great to _add_ to anti-infantry shooting, and have around for killing MCs, Plague Marines, etc. And yes, they're hard to kill with return shots. But shuriken weaponry does a better job of punishing incoming (or stand and shoot) infantry, IMO.

As for ever using them in CC- Pathfinders may crunch a couple Marines (well, more likely one Marine), but those Marines will then rip them a new one in return. It wouldn't be very useful to throw them against anything harder than GEQ, unless you're doing it to contest an objective on the last turn, and there's little chance of half of them dying.

Well tactically speaking, if I can overload 2 enemy units with 3 of mine and karandras distracts 2 more by himself...and I can then move the scorpions over to crush those that survived their encounter with karandras...don't I win in detail? I usually suicide my phoenix lords. They're good at that.

The pathfinders will refuse flank, and the scorpions will guard them from behind. When it's time to leave the pathfinders will fall back and the scorpions will be ready to engage in CC. I'd probably setup a long ways away from hordes and let them come to me. 12"+6"+1" min fleet + 36"range means I'd take the 2nd turn and let him move into range with his closest unit. It'll still be 2 turns of shooting, which is enough to crush each unit in turn.

If you don't bring vehicles, you don't have better anti-infantry shooting in a Eldar list than pathfinders.

Stelek wrote:Well tactically speaking, if I can overload 2 enemy units with 3 of mine and karandras distracts 2 more by himself...and I can then move the scorpions over to crush those that survived their encounter with karandras...don't I win in detail?

That seems a bit optimistic given the cost of the units (you will often be outnumbered or at least equaled). As for Karandras distracting 2 enemy units, actually his chances aren't that great aginst even a single unit of MEQ or even Orks. As I said, sheer numbers can overwhelm him, unfortunately. he has a better chance vs. the Orks, as he can forgo the powerfist to strike first. But I'm still dubious about karandras vs. any unit of 10 decent CC troops in the absence of killzones.

I usually suicide my phoenix lords. They're good at that.

Ditto that. Except Asurmen, who usually lives to annoy the enemy another day.

The pathfinders will refuse flank, and the scorpions will guard them from behind. When it's time to leave the pathfinders will fall back and the scorpions will be ready to engage in CC. I'd probably setup a long ways away from hordes and let them come to me. 12"+6"+1" min fleet + 36"range means I'd take the 2nd turn and let him move into range with his closest unit. It'll still be 2 turns of shooting, which is enough to crush each unit in turn.

A good plan for a static shoot-out with opponents who don't significantly outnumber you, on a board with good sight lines. A rare situation, unfortunately. In objective-grabbing scenarios or vs. superior CC or shooting setups, it's just not very competitive.

If you don't bring vehicles, you don't have better anti-infantry shooting in a Eldar list than pathfinders.

I disagree. I find Avengers do very well at anti-infantry duty, especially in an advancing foot list. Again, it's volume of fire rather than accuracy that matters, because you're likely to get only two turns of shooting max versus dedicated CC armies. Against gunlines, you simply won't kill them fast enough to win the war of attrition, either.

I think the list is fun, but the anti-infantry element is weak. One more high-volume anti-infantry shooting unit could fix that. Heck, even jetbikes would do. Their maneuverability would really help harry incoming CC troops, or could go after dug-in shooters.

GT terrain is never very competitive. You don't need lots of sightlines for this army, you only have 3 immobile shooting units. Of course, I'm talking 5th edition and I don't think you are.

Avengers are crap. Crap crap crap. 5th edition, remember.
I see you, I shoot you, you die. Crap. 100%.

I have no idea how 2+ cover saves don't survive well in 9 man squads vs pretty much anyones shooting. And clear out the 36" zone they cover.

How does karandras die to a standard assault squad, again? When he assaults them? The standard is 8, btw.

If he takes all their attacks, he'll suffer 1 autowound from the Powerfist and might or might not take 1 from the other 16 attacks (8 hit, 4 wound, 2+ save).

Then he kills 4-6. Usually 5.

In comes another powerfist hit, and the squad dies.

5th edition, not 4th...

Sorry, double post.

Savnock wrote:

Stelek wrote:GT terrain is never very competitive. You don't need lots of sightlines for this army, you only have 3 immobile shooting units. Of course, I'm talking 5th edition and I don't think you are.

Actually, i saw that you were talking 5th ed., and I mentioned KPs, etc. a few times. I did forget about the crappy terrain/LOS rules in the .pdf. Fair enough. I don't think that change is going to make it into 5th, but that's tangential to the discussion at hand, where we are assuming things will be like the .pdf. But even under the .pdf, decent coversaves will reduce the kill ratio on sniper weapons enough to make them less than optimal as anti-troop weapons on their own. They need support from, say, shuriken fire.

Avengers are crap. Crap crap crap. 5th edition, remember.
I see you, I shoot you, you die. Crap. 100%.

Fair enough. I'd forgotten the changes to terrain/LOS rules.

As for Avengers, I use 2-3x Avengers in Wave Serpents. With VE, they get far enough forwards often enough to Bladestorm the enemy. Then they get into CC and tarpit with PW/SS and Fortune. They're not crap if played correctly.

I have no idea how 2+ cover saves don't survive well in 9 man squads vs pretty much anyones shooting. And clear out the 36" zone they cover.

Clear out the 36"? You've got a whopping 27 sniper shots per turn, even assuming you all three squads have LOS. With decent cover, or even just a 100-point meatsheild like Guardians or Gaunts, you're losing half your shots to coversaves. Shooting the meatshield, you're killing less than half a spinegaunt per turn. Simply not enough. I'm talking about volume of fire, not accuracy. You just don't have enough shots here to thin the enemy to the point where Scorps won't be overwhelmed. Heck, even without cover, 22.5 of those hit, 11.25 wound. 2.25 of those get saves, so 9-11 models die. That's not very impressive for the 650-point investment. The warwalkers with MLs are much scarier, but they're still not enough to thin a good horde significantly enough that the Pathfinders and Scorps can handle them when they hit- especially if some of your Scorps are off killing enemy objective-grabbers, etc.

As for 2+ saves, enough flashlights can still toast the Pathfinders. They're 4 times the cost of a Guardsman. That's 4 to 8 flashlights coming in per single sniper shot going out- not even counting heavy or special weapons. And I personally would go after the Pathfinders with flamers from a drop squad, a volley of shot from bikes which then charge, or something similar.

How does karandras die to a standard assault squad, again? When he assaults them? The standard is 8, btw.

If he takes all their attacks, he'll suffer 1 autowound from the Powerfist and might or might not take 1 from the other 16 attacks (8 hit, 4 wound, 2+ save).

Then he kills 4-6. Usually 5.

No, less than that. He's down an attack too thanks to the powerfist nerf. 5th, remember? So he has 6 attacks, 7 on the charge, 4.66 hit, 3.88 wound. Not enough.

In comes another powerfist hit, and the squad dies.

Sadly, that hasn't been my experience. Two wounds from the squad, one from a fist. And if most players see an unaccompanied IC like Krarndras near an assault squad, they will use their superior mobility to jump him first. So add a second powerfist autowound, and likely two more from regular attacks. Even assuming Krandras gets the drop on a Marine squad, he rarely gets to hit a second time thanks to the PF. If you don't mind spending that much on a one-hit wonder (or evena 50/50 chance of dealing with an assault squad), be my guest.

5th edition, not 4th...

Yes, I know that. Stelek, you should really stop implying the ignorance or misinformation of those that you debate with and argue the validity of your points instead. You have decent points- debate them without denigrating your opponent. When the other person in a conversation is discussing KPs and the need for troops to score, they're speaking 5th. If they miss a detail that has changed, gracefully remind them of that, and you argument will sound better than if you tinge it with condescension.

Basically, I think you lack the needed volume of fire to deal with a horde, a high-volume shooting opponent, or even assaulty MEQ here. You don't think so. I'd be interested to see this list played against each of those.

Savnock:

One criticism- using Karandras with one of the Scorpion units can save you points (He's already got Shadowstrike).

Currently, you cannot do this, since the rules do not give you any way to attach an IC to a squad pre-battle, which is what would need to happen for this to work. Maybe 5th ed fixes this, but if not, it's no go.

This is such a grey area. They don't say that you _can't_ attach an IC to a squad pre-battle either, do they?

If you want to get semantic, attachment could happen not pre-battle but during deployment. This would require Karandras to be down first, with the Scorps deployed second. They become attached to him _while_ being deployed, thus gaining Infiltrate.

Given, this would require the Reserves rule to be in the scenario so that you could hold the squad back in the first place. In other scearios, it wouldn't work.

I guess that's a long way of saying you're right, unless Reserves are in effect. Boy, a FAQ to fix that would be really, really nice.

What does the Adepticon FAQ say on the matter?

They don't say that you _can't_ attach an IC to a squad pre-battle either, do they?

We both know that's not a recognised argument. The ruleset is prescriptive, not proscriptive.

If you want to get semantic, attachment could happen not pre-battle but during deployment. This would require Karandras to be down first, with the Scorps deployed second. They become attached to him _while_ being deployed, thus gaining Infiltrate.

Given, this would require the Reserves rule to be in the scenario so that you could hold the squad back in the first place. In other scearios, it wouldn't work.

It wouldn't work even with Reserves. "When deploying an independent character on the table, you may specify that it starts the game already inside a unit and place it in coherency with it" (pg. 81)--nothing about being able to do this with units held in Reserves.

Also, note that even with the Reserves rule in effect, the scenario would need to be phrased so as to allow you to hold the Scorpions in Reserve.

I'm curious as to how this list would hold up against Necrons. Since the BL doesn't work against the monolith, would it be worth it to trade two squads of walkers for 2 Fire Prisms with holo-fields and spirit stones?

You'd be trading quantity of shots for a Str 10 shot that could actually bring down the monolith, or wound the Deceiver plus the ability to put down a large blast on scarabs at longer range. Also, in the remaining walker squadron, which would be more effective, Scatter Lasers or Missle Launchers? Are the weapons twin-linked if they're doubled up on a walker?

Necrons would have a hard time dislodging the rangers.

The scorpions would probably need to go out and do what they can against the necrons. I wouldn't expect them to live, so it's really how well they get played vs how the necron player counters them that matters.

The war walkers would be shooting necrons, not the monolith. War walker weapons aren't twin linked if doubled up.

I wouldn't take the fire prisms myself, as they don't really fit the army very well.

You wouldn't have to dislodge the Rangers, just tarpit them with scarabs! Done.

Of course, if they're not wasting fire on your Rangers, then that means it's all coming towards your scorpions.

W/out fleet, the Scorpions are going to have a really hard time getting to the Necrons w/out taking at least 1 round of Rapid Gauss Fire....unless your opponent is being particularly brainless, so your prediction as to their survivability is, IMO, correct. Although, I can't help but wonder if they'd even make it into combat.

EDIT: Then again, I could be forgetting their 3+ save.

If there are alot of scarabs, you hold back the scorps and smash them in CC. A full scorp charge rips swarms a new one. So you only manage what, one turn? If the scorps are in front, you can't tarpit much but you do reduce most of your own shooting to zero.

The scorpions should only be going towards the necrons to engage in CC via infiltrate. If they have to walk, they're dead or gimped by the time they get there. 5th changes this a bit with the run move.

Yeah they do have a 3+ save, but take most necron fire (immortals and destroyers) right in the kisser due to their T3. That means almost every hit wounds, which is bad news--you'll take the hits on your exarch alot.

Even karandras can't take that kind of firepower, but if you sacrifice a scorp unit to get him there...he will really hurt necrons. Any unit without the viel, monolith, or a c'tan nearby is going to eat it pretty bad.

Stelek wrote: Any unit without the viel, monolith, or a c'tan nearby is going to eat it pretty bad.

Sooo, in the extremely likely event of a Necron Phalanx, your mass of scorpions become much less effective and end up baby-sitting the Rangers. Not that this is bad, the Rangers and Walkers could do a number on the Necron lines before they reach them, so long as they deal with Destroyers early on. But once the fight comes to you, if there's a C'tan in the mix then it's just a matter of time before your scorpions and Rangers are off the board. Then it becomes a matter of *hopefully* getting phase out before the Deceiver runs out of playthings.

And I'm not sure how your scorpions could get a charge on scarabs given the scarabs 18" move and assault (unless you let your Rangers get tied down for a turn and hope you can wipe them out in one go).

Not knocking your list or anything, I think it's a really great idea and would love to play with or against it.

But since I usually play Necrons, just trying to weigh its strengths and weaknesses.

Scorpions would be countercharge vs scarabs unless the scarabs were babysitting the phalanx vs an infiltrate and the Eldar went first.

I think the walkers would be firing everything at the deceiver until he's dead. So would the rangers. Honestly, how many turns you think he'll survive? One?

Mathhammer wise, it looks like it would only take 1 round of just the Rangers shooting to take him down...that's assuming that all 3 have LOS.

27 shots*.8333 to hit*.5 to wound*.5 saves=6.427 wounds

and so it all begins to make sense.

Rangers with fortune on them are a real pain to dig out.

Let's count the necron flamer weapons...and then count the number of necron units that can make it to the Eldar lines AND beat 30 scorpions in CC.

I envision the walkers dying, then the necron player trying to take the rangers down. 2+ or 3+ save with fortune vs some AP1 hits, 3+ saves, and WBB. Seems like a dice game at that point.

The necrons have mobility as a plus, even if it is limited on say immortals and warriors.

This kind of army has worked me over several times, but it is quite fun to play against. Lots of stuff to take care of. At least in this version I deleted the farseers and inserted karandras to keep the flavor, but you can afford farseers for what he costs and make the list even more annoying than it is already.