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I have an eldar army with a vyper and a falcon and Im thinking about uprgading the catupults on the viehicles into single cannons is it worth it?

If those 5th edition rumours are true probably not.

5th ed rumours aside, I would say yes, it is pretty worthwhile if you have the points.

The Vyper will probably not get many opportunities to shoot due to its fragility, so you want to make its one or two chances count. You should take double shuriken cannons in this case, since you won't be able to make good use of the longer ranges of the other weapons (exposing the Vyper to fire from 36" means it very likely won't live to use the extra shuriken cannnon).

In the case of the Falcon, the extra shuriken cannon ensures that your enemy cannot afford to ignore it even after a weapon destroyed result, and allows it to plink away with some effectiveness even after two. A hail of 2 S8 shots and 7 S6 shots (assuming the other HW is a scatter laser) is really no joke.

Point to note: you're not replacing two shuriken catapults, but a single twin-linked shuriken catapult.

What 5th edition rumor nerfs switching twin linked shuriken for a cannon?

Vehicle's defensive weapons becoming S4 and lower.

On falcons, I always upgrade the catapults to a cannon. The additional fire power on the gun boat really makes it a target that my opponents can not ignore (and not ignoring the toughest unit in my army is a winning situation for me). In other places, it is not always so good. When it comes to vypers, they are too frail to really take advantage of the shuriken cannon. If you get close enough to fire it, you are in range for all kinds of return fire that can drop your AV10 open top vehicle. It's much better to just sit back at 36" and use the primary armament. With wave serpents, it's kind of a toss up. The extra fire power is useful if you are going to be in situations to put it to use. Range isn't so much of an issue since you are going to be in the enemy's face anyway to deliver your cargo. Just make sure you don't end up wasting your fire power on units that your cargo is going to kill.

It makes sense on Vypers (not that Vypers really make sense in a cut-throat list. . .) if you go dual shuricannons. They cost the same as a single scatter, and I don't really believe that sitting at 36" will allow you 50% more turns of firing than sitting at 24" would. Anything serious will nail you at whatever range.

I would upgrade on the viper but I dont think you should get double cannons as a bright lance is an amazing tank killer. I suppose it depends what army you are playing

BLs on Vipers are amazing tank killers? My question would be not what army, but what game are you playing? It certainly isn't the 40k I know, where a BL Vyper shoots once, has half a chance of missing, a further half a chance of failing to scratch AV12+ if it hits, and then immediately dies and gives up 75 VP.

on the vyper I left the suriken catupults as they were and put a scatter laser on it that way I could at least get off a few shots before it went down if I put it in cover or I could use it to hit assault units coming towards my da since my banshees are likely to go down early.

well i must have been playing god aweful players then. anyway back onto subject i think that it is not worth upgrading on the falcon either.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:...and I don't really believe that sitting at 36" will allow you 50% more turns of firing than sitting at 24" would. Anything serious will nail you at whatever range.

The thing is that every unit and its mother has a weapon that can hurt a vyper at 24". At 36" your opponent has to dedicate heavy weapon fire to the vypers if he wants to kill them and that is valuable. The chances of a vyper going down to a tac squad with a heavy bolter at 24" is much much greater than the chance for it to go down at 36" because it will be taking 4-9 fewer bolter shots. Same goes for just about any other unit out there. Most basic weapons pose a threat to vypers and by staying away from the enemy, you end up living much longer...or at worst, sucking up heavy weapon fire that would otherwise be directed to your other vehicles. As far as I'm concerned, every las cannon and missile launcher that fires at my vypers instead of my wave serpents is fine by me. Same goes for heavy bolters that are not shooting at my foot troops that have 4+ or 5+ armor saves.

#1. I always want shuriken cannons on a Falcon. It turns it from a razorback to a land raider. The shuriken cannon really makes a difference, and it makes for a great gunboat. When you are shooting at the sides of vehicles with BS3, you will be glad you upgraded.

#2. In Vypers I would either go for cheap and 2 shuriken cannons. That lets you unload 6 shots at strength 6, which is not too bad. I normally use them for killing land speeders, but they don’t live very long. The other option is to give them a heavy weapon with some range and sit back as far as you can, so a shuriken cannon is a waste of points on this. Neither option is very good because of the cost, and the survivability of the Vyper which is nil.

Thanks for all the answers guys I am sooooooooooo glad I found this site but unfortunatley in the starter box set I got the falcon in the spue for the falcon doesnt have the underside shuriken cannon . it only has the twin linked shuriken catupults I opened the box today to put it together and was planing on uprgrading to the single cannon but I gues Ill have to use those points elswhere in my army.

thanks anyways though.

p.s I put a pulse laser and a scatter laser on the falcon.

that happened to me aswell but if you have friendly opponents they might let you use it anyway

Cobbs wrote:that happened to me aswell but if you have friendly opponents they might let you use it anyway

Im joining a begginers leuge so lets hope most of them are nice enough to let me do that

Phoenix:

The thing is that every unit and its mother has a weapon that can hurt a vyper at 24". At 36" your opponent has to dedicate heavy weapon fire to the vypers if he wants to kill them and that is valuable. The chances of a vyper going down to a tac squad with a heavy bolter at 24" is much much greater than the chance for it to go down at 36" because it will be taking 4-9 fewer bolter shots.

I have literally not seen an HB in a Tac squad for years. Yes, basic weapons pose a threat to Vypers, but because basic weapons in 40k usually come with a lascannon attached, the question is almost academic to me.

foxwolf: Are you magnetising the weapon mounts? It's worthwhile to do so.

magnitizing um I dont even know what that means what is it

It means that instead of gluing the weapon to the vehicle, you glue a little magnet to each, so you can swap weapons with ease between battles.

oh crap too late to do that for the falcon but ill keep that in mind for the wraithlord and all further viehicles thanks for the suggestion.

where can you buy magnets that small?

Radio Shack, but they are a bit more expensive than ordering from online. You'd be looking for Rare Earth Magnets.

Yeah, at Radio Shack you can buy a pair for maybe $2. Online you can buy dozens or hundreds for not much more. http://www.amazingmagnets.com/ is one site. There are others. I can’t remember the best size, but you can buy 100 magnets 1/8” diameter and 1/32” thick for $8.

You can convert the shuriken cats to a shuriken cannon by cutting and gluing. The join is hidden under the hull, so even if the cut/join is a bit messy, it won’t be noticeable in regular play.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Phoenix:

The thing is that every unit and its mother has a weapon that can hurt a vyper at 24". At 36" your opponent has to dedicate heavy weapon fire to the vypers if he wants to kill them and that is valuable. The chances of a vyper going down to a tac squad with a heavy bolter at 24" is much much greater than the chance for it to go down at 36" because it will be taking 4-9 fewer bolter shots.

I have literally not seen an HB in a Tac squad for years. Yes, basic weapons pose a threat to Vypers, but because basic weapons in 40k usually come with a lascannon attached, the question is almost academic to me.

I was just picking a heavy weapon at random. It doesn't make much difference what it is, but lets look at some numbers.

1 las cannon = 33% chance to kill a vyper (note this means get a destroyed, or immobalized result on the damage chart)
4 bolter shots = 22% chance to kill a vyper (number of shots from a 6 man las/plas)
6 bolter shots = 33% chance to kill a vyper (6 shots chosen because it gives the same chance to kill a vyper as the las cannon)
8 bloter shots = 44% chance to kill a vyper (8 shots being what would be put out from a 10 man las/plas squad)
1 plasma shot = 22% chance to kill a vyper
3 heavy bolter shots = 33% chance to kill a vyper (same as a las cannon)

So as you can see the bolter fire that comes from the rest of that tac squad is not something that you can ignore since it is almost as dangerous as the las cannon fire (or possibly more so given large squads shooting back). But if we look at the standard 6 man las/plas squad at 24" they have a total of 78% chance to kill off a vyper. If you back out to 29" away from them then it goes down to 33%. If that isn't a significant increase in survivability, I don't know what is.