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Thought of playing blood angels-most likely a successor (Brothers ?)-and just wanted to get some opinions
on a list i thought of.

I wanted a fairly balanced force and so thought of doing a half company
i dont want to use Lemartes because he is too cheap for his upgrades(+1 w, death mask)over a regular
jump pack chaplain
dont know how well a semi-mech force will work out but it seems ok in theory
i have also designed this list with 5th edition in mind
im not sure on the 5 man tact-but i wanted to maintain the 50 marines that are half of a company
i also really like how melta weaponry looks to be helpful as glancing may be insignifcant on many vehicles
i also think without the bonus for 2 close combat weapons rumored for power fists, regular power weapons with less cost
may be effective in instances where you dont expect to charge
any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated

Chaplain w/crozius, jump pack
Death Company(5)w/ jump packs

Tactical Squad(10)w/ meltagun
-Vet Srg w/power weapon
-Rhino

Tactical Squad(10)w/meltagun
-Vet Srg w/power weapon
-Rhino

Tactical Squad(5)w/flamer
-Vet Srg w/Powerfist
-Razorback

Assault Squad(10)
-Vet Srg w/powerfist

Devastator Squad(10)
-4 w/multimelta

Baal Predator w/ heavy flamer sponsons

no suggestions?

Maybe replace the Multi-Meltas on the Devastators with longer ranged weapons? Or just replace two Multi-Meltas with Missile Launchers, and split them off into a Combat Squad?

Also, if you're going to use Combat Squads, a Captain will be very handy so they aren't relying on their own Ld8. Of course, that leaves your Death Company as a liability because they aren't controlled.

i think i'll use a captain when i get higher in points to provide leadership help

i really like the concept of multi-meltas and with more need for mobility anyway i figure i can
use "run" to move up them in cover behind the vehicles with the assault squad and provide
an extended threat range. as long as i can get units onto objectives it could be difficult to remove that many marines
with tanks or hordes

and everyone uses lascannons or missile launchers and im looking for something different

GO HEAD!
Multi Meltas all the way
B)

is one baal worth using or should i try to get something else

like 2 attack bikes

i figured another vehicle would help
but it will be the first thing targeted along with the death company right away every game
although it could work as a pretty cheap firepower magnet

no thoughts?

It's easier to express an opinion when your messages are expressed in English sentences. Several sentences together make a paragraph to express an idea. Proper names and words beginning sentences are capitalized, and sentences themselves are punctuated by periods when they are finished.

I didn't realize my post were difficult to understand. Do you have any thoughts on what i could add or remove to improve the list.

Any other suggestions?
The list is intended for 5th edition

Is one baal worth it?
Or should I replace it for more upgrades on other units?

Should I try to get the dev's a transport? Which one would be better?

which cheap hq would you prefer with 5th edtion-chap or corbulo.

I'm trying to create a mobile army that can bunker down on an objective and have some valuable close combat units to counter assault(5 man tac, dc, and assault) units to take the brunt(tacs), and some anti-tank if tanks/mc's attempt to close with me(devs).

What do you guys think of combat squadding in 5th.
Any suggestions on what is needed in a mobile, resilient force would be appreciated as I'm more use to the gunline approach.

Combat squads suck no matter how you slice or dice it. They are what Jervis Johnson did to Space Marines to make a play to all the power armor haters out there/here. You can just run shooty five man squads with razorbacks for your tact squads if you want to save some points and shoot like a gun fiend.

I think if you don't like Lemartes then BA might not be an appropriate army for you. If you don't want to play him then there is no reason to say he is too cheap and immediately alienate yourself from all other BA players who field him. Special characters are a big part of V edition. Many people have played special characters in one form or another such as Emperor's Champion or all eldar players' favorite choice Eldrad. Lemartes is very cool and a bargain for 125 points... to me he is a better choice than anything DA can put on the table.

G

I'm a Blood Angels player and I like the Combat Squads rule, and wouldn't touch that fugly Lemartes miniature if I got paid $5 every game. Besides, who wants a cookie-cutter army?

It's cheaper for Blood Angels to buy a full squad and divide it in two than it is for them to buy two half-squads - you can get extra Death Company models that way, but then you need Jump Packs and a Chaplain to use them effectively which tends to make Blood Angels a little one-dimensional and thus predictable (which is boring, and sucks when your opponents catch on).

Actually using Combat Squads is trickier even though having more units than your opponent is a marked advantage (since units can't ordinarily split fire). I've found that if I'm going to be able to use Combat Squads, then I need a full squad to absorb firepower and act threatening. The half with the Heavy Weapon (or any half two Heavy Weapons...) hangs back, while the half with the Assault Weapon moves up to back-up the full squad. The interesting thing about this is that it makes the Codex Battle Company configuration pretty useful: Each squad has a double that can use Combat Squads to split up incoming fire, and finely tune outgoing firepower.

I disagree. I have played several combat squad BA armies in tournaments with my mech BA and I always rolled right through them. The five man squads get trashed by full squads... in fact I would go so far as to say one 10 man squad with jump packs can destroy an entire flank of combat squads. To me combat squads are theory hammer at best in IV edition and I have never been a fan of that. Maybe combat squads will work better in V edition though but I doubt it based on what I have read so far.

Back to Lemartes... nothing is stopping anyone from doing a kick arse looking conversion!

G

Well yeah, that's why you don't use an entire flank of Combat Squads. They aren't supposed to take on full squads of other armies. They're good for adding muscle to your own full squads, and efficiently distributing anti-tank firepower. Call it "theory-hammer" if you want, that's what my experience tells me.

Out of three Tactical squads, dividing more than one into Combat Squads makes them un-necessarily fragile, but dividing that one and leaving its Heavy Weapon (or even both its Heavy Weapon and a Plasma Gun) back for support while the other half follows up the other two if they advance will increase the firepower and assault power of that force.

Similarly the problem with the Multi-Melta armed Devastator squad is that if it isn't split up then it won't cover as much of the board (and since four Multi-Meltas is over-kill, it will definitely waste a few shots), but if it is split up so that range and overkill isn't a factor then its components will be fragile because there isn't a full Devastator squad around to look more threatening.

As for Assault squads? I don't use them, but I'd imagine their only use for Combat squads would be to spam the enemy with targets, which in many cases where AP3- isn't in abundance isn't as effective as having one larger target, and to use cover more effectively. Or perhaps flanking to increase the number of engaged models. They'll still get pooched if there isn't something scarier and more effective to take the flak while they're incoming though.

I still think two 5 man tactical squad is better than one full squad split into two. First you can double up on the plasma gun and razorback. Second the two five man squads are better for shooting and combat squads are not good for assaults unless you are in a real pinch. 4 S4 attacks plus a couple power weapon / fist attacks are not a threat. For BA you also gain another DC. The new Devs are where your heavy weapons go.

Now I do love full ten man tactical squads not split. Remember that you cannot split into combat squads for missions that has reserves.

G

I'm not saying that a full Tactical squad is better than two Combat squads, I'm saying they're complementary.

With regard to whether two half-strength Tactical squads are better than two Combat squads of the same type, I think it's a toss-up depending on what points are available and what you plan on doing. The former would cost 40 more points with no upgrades, which would finance an extra Veteran Sergeant upgrade and an extra Death Company Marine for a total of one extra model.

The other Sergeant would need a Power Weapon or Power Fist to really make the extra two attacks worth it, which makes the two Tactical squads about 55 to 65 points more. A Plasma Cannon and a Plasma Gun are the same number of points, interestingly, if you take either, then you won't be able to assault the turn that you use that weapon. Likewise two Razorbacks, rather than a single Rhino would cost an additional 65 points at minimum, but doesn't have Over-Charged Engines.

So for 120-130 points more than a full Tactical squad with a Plasma Cannon and a Plasma Gun, and a Rhino, you get an extra IFV, a bonus Veteran Sergeant upgrade, and an extra Death Company Marine, a total of two extra models. Doubling up on the Razorback is okay, except that it can't move as fast as a Rhino, and it needs to move slowly or not at all to make use of its Heavy Bolter. Mind you, the Heavy Bolter will come in useful if you cross the board at full speed, unload, and then shoot it in the turn that the short squad assaults, because they won't be able to use their Bolt Guns and Plasma Gun that turn.

I'm not sure how eight S4 attacks bolstered by three Power Weapon or Power Fist attacks is not a threat when that is what a short Tactical squad can offer in the Assault phase. However, I would not expect either short Tactical squads or advancing Tactical Combat squads to assault units alone, if they assault at all. As such I would expect them to assault in support of a dedicated assault unit like an Assault Squad, or in support of a full Tactical Squad.

I think the difference in use is whether you want one squad able to hang back and provide support with a cheap Heavy Weapon while a shorter-ranged squad moves closer and supports the advance (instead of one squad either hanging back or one advancing), or you want to pay a premium two squads advancing (instead of one squad advancing) with an extra Power thingy and an extra Death Company member. It seems to hang on what you want to do with the rest of your army (or afford to have available).

With regard to assault power though: Why would you use Tactical squads as assault troops, particularly those armed with Plasma Guns? It's not like you can't use Assault squads.

If I were to use five man squads the army would be geared towards SAFH with a small counter assault element. I would not use them with the purpose of assaulting. I posted a list recently using five man squads for the first 1500 points to show that it is actually still possible to min max SM as a shooty army. Take a look at that list:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/209737.page

It has a lot of guns.

G

That list looks pretty fragile.

Ha! I beat Godzilla Nidz with it just last weekend!

G

Sure, but Godilla-style Tyranids are a mug's army (probably why they're so popular). How do they do against things like Orks, mixed Tyranids, and other Space Marines?

If i can find the points perhaps i'll think of a lemartes conversion and i happen to agree with Nurglitch that the flexibility of combat squads will be useful for 5th edition

What about my other concerns?
Is one baal worth it in 5th or should i upgrade the rest of my squads
-i could get a razor back for the devs
-give melta bombs to the pw sergeants
-upgrade to lemartes
-put heavy weapons in the large tacticals
What about assault squads-are plasma pistols worth it anymore.
-i have also considered a vindicator or whirlwind but I am unsure if one is worth it

Only time will tell. I think they are good for Devs but that is it.

G