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After gaining access to a reasonable array of models in the weeks since the tournament (which I am currently in the process of writing the battle reports for), I thought I'd make a redux of the army list I used. The previous one did not have enough models, and relied too much on a large Terminator Squad. Granted, I had no other choice as far as models went, but I think the following list is a vast improvement over the previous one.

Let me know what you all think with some questions, comments, criticisms, or whatever. Thanks in advance.

Black Templars 1850 Points Tourney List

HEADQUARTERS

Reclusiarch w/ Bolt Pistol, HOA, Frags, 3 Cenobytes, Teleport Homer - 142

Reclusiarch w/ Bolt Pistol, HOA, Frags, 3 Cenobytes, Teleport Homer - 142

Emperor's Champion w/ "Abhor the Witch" - 110

ELITES

Terminator Squad (6) w/ 2 Assault Cannons - 280

Terminator Squad (6) w/ 2 Assault Cannons - 280

TROOPS

Crusader Squad (10/10) w/ Power Fist, Meltagun - 285

Crusader Squad (10/10) w/ Power Fist, Meltagun - 285

HEAVY SUPPORT

Vindicator w/ Power of the Machine Spirit, Smoke Launchers, Extra Armor - 163

Vindicator w/ Power of the Machine Spirit, Smoke Launchers, Extra Armor - 163

* * * * *

1850 Points

61 Models, 2 Vehicles

The general tactic against most armies would be to pack a Reclusiarch into each 20-man Crusader Squad and run up the field with the Vindicators in tow (possibly acting as a divider between the two squads). The Terminators would, depending on the mission, either run with the Initiates and Neophytes, or wait until the Reclusiarchs were close enough to the enemy to beam down the Termies and unload some Assault Cannon goodness before absorbing the rest of the enemy's fire before the 49 Marines, Neophytes, Reclusiarchs, and Emperor's Champion (which would roll with the Termies if they were slogging it) connected on the charge.

Now for a quick breakdown of what I see as the good and what I see as the bad:

PROS
-- High model count at 1850, with a healthy amount of 3+ and 2+ saves. This'll be crucial against scalpel style armies or those with a lot of anti-tank weapons designed to kill your typical MEQ army.
--Fearless, +3" Zealing troops. Kill one model, and the entire 24-man squad moves 4-9" in the opponent's turn. The potential of (with the inclusion of a 6" charge) moving up to 21" in a single turn is in my opinion one of the strongest aspects of Crusaders with Reclusiarchs and Cenobytes.
--Assault Cannons. They're stuck into reasonably tough squads (tough for 1850) of 6 Terminators, and will provide the bulk of my mid-range anti-tank and anti-MEQ/MC killing power.
--Assault Power. This army will absolutely stomp any other army in Close Combat, with a few exceptions. I don't consider their slow speed to be a con, as my opponent isn't going to be sitting around and letting that many CC models get close to him. Shooting them makes them go quicker though, so it's a lose-lose for my opponent unless they can kill 24 T4, 3+/4+ Save models in a single turn. If he can do that, I'm already hosed, so no worries.

CONS
--Vindicators. Given that they can put out a S10 AP2 Ordnance1/5"Blast shot every turn unless it's dead, they're going to attract all the anti-tank fire my opponent can field. Then again, this'll take pressure off the Terminators for a turn or two, but losing 326 points of Heavy Support is not fun, especially when your opponent does it in the first turn of the game (I lost all 3 vindicators in all 3 of the games I played in the tournament. Granted, I went up against Meltagun crazy Drop Pod Marines an Hammerhead/Broadside Tau in my first two games, but it was still ridiculous).
--Mechanized Armies will still have a field day with this list. So long as my opponent can move 12" a turn with everything, he can sit outside of my maximum range of 24" and pummel me. Triple Russ Guard will be a huge problem for this list, and would likely have to be dealt with via DS Termies or super-spaced Crusader Squads.
--Short Range. I mentioned earlier that my maximum range is 24", but that's only for 10 Storm Bolters (2 on Vindis), 4 Assault Cannons, and 2 Demolisher Cannons, which is not very impressive for 1850 points. Since the other 2/3 of my army's firepower sits in the 12" range (which is the forefront of Assault distance), not much is going to get done in my shooting phase, unless I'm hitting hordes of units, 2+ save models, and non-Monolith vehicles (AssCans). If my opponent can kill the Vindicators early on (which is highly likely), it becomes a simple matter of avoiding/killing off the Assault Cannons to turn the game into a wild goose chase, with my Marines scampering all over the place getting picked off.

All this being said, I feel that this list has a pretty solid base, regardless of its ranged and mechanized shortcomings, and will compete strongly against my primary opponents (pure GK, flying circus and Immortal-heavy Necrons, Hammerhead-heavy Tau, Berserker-heavy World Eaters). The only list that my friend and I could come up with to pose an immediate problem for this list was the following Necron list:

Nightbringer
42 Warriors
3 Monoliths

Nasty for what I'm fielding, right? Anyway, let me know what you think. I congratulate you if you made it this far into my post.

CK

The melta guns in the cusader squads aren't necessary. 1 melta gun isn't that useful for a squad that will be charging headlong at enemy infantry. You can save 20 points there.

While PotMS is nice, it's not 30 points nice. It's better to have cheaper, but slightly less useful tanks so that when (not if, considering your meta game) they die, you give up less vps. If you place you vindicators centrally, by turn 2/3 not much is out of range anyway.

The third superfluous thing in your army is the 6th termies in each squad. The best they can do for the squad is make them score for a little bit longer. NOT worth 80 points.

This gives you 160 points to play with, with no serious reduction in effectiveness from anywhere in your list. I advise you to take a pred. I know preds are pretty looked down upon, but in your situation a tri-las or auto-las pred would do your army a lot of good. An auto-las pred would probably be better because the vidies can take care of the AV14. If you want to be a bit more mobile, you could go with a las/missle dread, but I don't think it would be as good.

That takes up 125 points. That leaves 35 points. I'd take a power fist for the chappy the doesn't go with the champion. You could put MotMS back on a Vidi though. Crusader seals are something to consider as well.

-LE037

I think this list is fairly well rounded and about as well rounded as a BT list can be. PotMS is one of the best upgrades you can put on a vindicator and only on a vindicator. The ability for it to continue to move and shoot even while stunned is invaluable for a foot slogging army.

I will say how ever that your Anti Monolith power is very low. If you are to defeat your Necron opponent you will need to ignore the liths and take out enough warriors that he phases. Also the Night Bringer might give you some problems. I would suggest drooping the servitors and taking a thunder hammer on the chaplains. Also (I am not 100% you can do this I need to check the dex) give one an adamatium mantle. This will improve his survivability against the Nightbringer.

I think you can get the same effect with taking 2 Predator annihilators with HB sponsons. Mine have not let me down yet. They can still advance on the enemy and also engage them much earlier. I also agree with Cypher that if you are taking mobs of guys, the meltaguns aren't necessary, but not really a liability either. If you were to swap your vindis for preds and drop the meltaguns, you get 70pts back into your list. Not sure what you can do with 70pts in your list, but as always with templars I'd play with what you are comfortable with. Although the 70pts can allow you to upgrade one of your chaplains to be a little more killy. You can never go wrong with a power fist/ mantle.

Capt K

It's a two-turn list.

That isn't very competitive.

Turn 1, you move [and I'm out of range].

Turn 1, I kill your vehicles and pummel your terminators.

Turn 2, you move [and I'm now in range of your terminators]. You fire, and at best remove two of my visible and in-range units from play.

Turn 2, I kill the rest of your terminators.

Turn 3, you give up. 40+ marines on the board and you're just pissing into the wind at this point.

You don't really think anyone is going to shoot your crusader squads until everything else in your army is dead, do you?

In 5th edition, if it isn't an objective mission...I won't even bother shooting them until I can put a tremendous amount of firepower into one squad and kill it.

Armies I have that can one shot a 20 man marine squad:

Tau, IG, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Tyranids, Chaos, Orks.

Hey wait a minute! That's every army!

You are predicating your success on what an opponent MIGHT do. What happens when he doesn't do it? Right, you lose.

BT have many interesting options. You should explore the Codex further.

Thanks for the input, Stelek. You want to give me something I can work with?

Okay, so you think it sucks. That's great. What would you suggest I do? Don't criticize and then not offer any alternative. That doesn't help me.

As for the predicting my success, if my opponent does as you suggest and kills my Vindicators and Terminators in turns 1 and 2, suddenly I'm halfway to the opponent's army with 48 Initiates/Neophytes. I can see how it would be difficult at that point for me to chase my opponent down, but I have yet to face an opponent in my 9 years of play that can reliably kill a 24-man squad in a single turn (at 1850 points), with the exception of triple-Russ Imperial Guard and old edition Iron Warriors.

* * * * *

As an aside, what would you all think if I dropped the two Terminator Squads and took two more 20-man Crusader Squads? I'd have to get rid of the Extra Armor on the Vindicators for it to work.

It would have even less firepower than the previously mentioned list, but I believe the assaulting power of such a list, combined with the overwhelming weight of 89 models (one 2+, forty two 3+, forty six 4+) cannot be denied.

@Karuthors
I'm liking the idea of Las/HB Preds. I've never fielded them before, but seeing as how my army lacks long range anti-tank, they definitely have potential. The reason I'm hesitant to use them, however, is that my Necron opponent would just laugh, and my Tau opponent would eat them alive. Since I play those two armies more than any other faction (GK and World Eaters close behind though), I need to focus on what my strengths as a BT player are against those types of lists, which is Terminators and horde Marines when fighting necrons, and just horde Marines when fighting Tau.

a TH/Mantle Reclusiarch would definitely help against the Nightbringer, provided my opponent did the smart thing and went for the mass kills against the squad.

* * * * *

Thanks so far for the suggestions. Keep them coming.

CK

You could drop one of the termie squads and pick up a command squad. I have been running command squads as of late and they really work well. Chaplain led command squads are hard as nails since you can bounce failed saves with the apothecary when you need to and ignore it when you want the extra move. However, I strongly suggest fielding as big a command squad as possible. It basically functions just like your other large squads, but the bonus is that you get a powerfist guy with 4 attacks on the charge instead of just three. The command squad is the only place where you get a vet. sgt. The command squad gets even more rude if you take Grimaldus. He is by far the best HQ unit to use in a horde style Templars list. When you reveal the relic on the turn you charge, your hidden PF guy gets 5 attacks that reroll to hit. I have been running the command squad in a crusader and so far it has been working rather well. Take the AtC vow and the command squad is a real buzzsaw. Plus AtC vow makes your terminators even more scarier.

Capt K

Make sure you're running the cheap 2 wound chaplains, I think you are, but I forget the name differentiation.

Also, give the chappy's teleport homers, and the terminators can then drop down right in front of them. As you are advancing, the trick then is to teleport in the termies to (ideally) 1" away from an enemy unit, so if they shoot you, its pretty much guaranteed they will get to consolidate in. (Even more likely if you are using Grimaldus, since any unit they shoot will catapult termies into them.) You can use assault termies for this if you want. Note that this tactic is fun, but the competetiveness is iffy.

I'd say you could drop a termie squad and pick up another 20 man crusader squad, or two squads of ten in drop pods.

I also agree that the vindi's should be predators, but I would take Autocannon + 2 lascannons and use them at as far away range as you can for anti-tank.

Ok, Here is the deal with this list. I think its good, very good. At least against the armies I can field. But, if you drop the termies and take 2 more 20 man squads, then its ridiculous. With your zealing brokeness, you would totally cancel out any shooty list of doom that I could field, it would simply be too much to kill agaisnt the armies I play. Potentially, the terminators could be a better option, just because of how broken the dice can be in their favor, but not always. So, if I were you, I would take 2 more squads of troops and pherhaps a predator like everyone has been saying. With that many models on the board I think you would crush MOST anything I could field.

Make sure you're running the cheap 2 wound chaplains, I think you are, but I forget the name differentiation

If you are going to run a 2 wound chaplain, you might as well just take grimaldus. He's a little more expensive than a reclusiarch, but with his special rule you are basically getting a +1 wound and a relic.

Capt K

@CaptKaruthors:

I recently purchased a couple dozen models from a friend of mine, which included a 10-man command squad. I've been hesitant in the past of taking such an expensive unit, but I agree with you - the power of so many power fist attacks (that reroll to hit, to boot) is undeniable. I was thinking I'd take them in the following configuration if I did:

Grimaldus - 195pts

Command Squad (10) - 245pts
Vet Sgt w/ PF, Bolt Pistol - 46
Apothecary - 31
Company Champion - 36
Initiates (2) w/ Meltagun - 52
Initiates (5) w/ BP, CCW - 80

Combined, Grimaldus and the Command Squad weigh in at 440 points, which is just slightly more expensive than the typical 8-man, 2-AC Terminator Squads that I often run. It's definitely something I'll look into in the future, though right now I'm pretty absorbed with the Reclusiarch + Terminator Command Squad list. Together, they either number 6 or 8 in total depending on the points limit of the game, and they've proven more useful than I ever imagined. Zealing Terminators are simply amazing.

When you say "AtC," do you mean Accept Any Challenge? I usually use this vow, unless I know for certain I'm playing a psyker-fielding opponent (or going to a tourney). 5th Edition is going to make this vow absolutely nasty.

Agreed on Grimaldus. I used him in a game recently where I fielded 40 close combat infantry. He would be disgustingly good in a game where I had twice as many.

I'll look into the Predators. As I said before though, I'm hesitant due to their decreased usefulness in my local metagame. As a horde infantry close combat army, it's hard for me to compete in the armored department against Hammerhead Tau and Necrons, who both slice and dice tanks like it's their job.

@whitedragon:

A Reclusiarch is the 2 wound Chaplain. A Master of Sanctity is the 3 wound Chaplain.

I've added Teleport Homers to the Chaplains. It makes the Terminators very surgical indeed, and a real pain for my opponent to face later in the game. No one wants to be confronted with 12 fresh 2+ saves in turn three.

I also like the idea of taking 10-man troop squads in drop pods. It would work incredibly well when fielding a crap-ton of them. I'll look into some Drop Pod builds, but for the time being I'd like to focus on making a footslogging horde infantry army, which is the aim of this thread. Thanks for the suggestion though.

@extrenm(54):
The advantage of adding 40 bodies to this list is a big one, but at the loss of any ranged firepower. Not necessarily a bad trade off, considering the killing power of that many Marines on the charge, but I must still look at the opportunity cost: 12 Power Fists, 4 Assault Cannons, and a dozen 2+ saves that at the very least will eat a lot of firepower before going down.

buying the Predators would set me back another 80 dollars. We'll see how my summer job treats me after a couple months. I am a poor college student after all.

* * * * *

Here's a refined list incorporating some of the suggestions I've heard. How does this compare to the original list?

Grimaldus w/ MC Plasma Pistol, Crozius, Rosarius, Terminator Honors, Cenobyte Retinue (3) - 195

Master of Sanctity w/ Bolt Pistol, Crozius, Rosarius, 3 Cenobyte Servitors, Holy Orb of Antioch, Terminator Honors, Frags, Melta Bombs - 172

Emperor's Champion w/ Accept Any Challenge - 140

8/8-man Crusader Squad w/ PF, Meltagun - 233

8/8-man Crusader Squad w/ PF, Meltagun - 233

8/8-man Crusader Squad w/ PF, Meltagun - 233

8/8-man Crusader Squad w/ PF, Meltagun - 233

Assault Marine Squad (8) w/ PF, 2 Plasma Pistols - 201

Assault Marine Squad (8) w/ PF, 2 Plasma Pistols - 201

1841 Points. Still packs 89 Models, but now they're spread across 6 scoring units instead of 4.

The Assault Marines will hopefully tie up something early on, or at least eat fire and let my footsloggers march forward. Put Grimaldus, the MoS, and the EC each in a Crusader Squad, and run it up the field. I think the sheer number of troops in this list more than makes up for the lack of Vindicators.

Sorry, no Preds for this one. I lack the money to purchase them at this time. The Assault Marines will work as a decent stopgap unit in the meantime I think, though in a different capacity.

How do you all like this list? I know it doesn't have the 20-man squads, but since I am unable to field Predators I needed something to take their place. The Assault Marines are 60 points more than a Pred, so something had to give (2 Initiates and 2 Neophtyes per squad isn't too bad, IMHO).

I see creating an army list as a dynamic process. I won't necessarily get to playtest this for some time, but I definitely want to keep up this exchange to iron out any other problems beforehand.

CK

Not bad, but I think your assault marines are a liability at this point. Remember that they are LD 8...not very good. Nothing sucks more than taking casualties and running off the table. THe other thing that makes them a liability is pinning. If you are playing Tau, they have the means to pin your assault marines easily with Marker lights. You are going have to take either a Marshall (to make them all LD10), or join a chaplain to one of those squads at least. I'd give a jump pack to your master of sanctity and have him join a unit. Secondly, in a tournament you are going to have problems vs. hordes. You simply don't have enough fire power to reduce the numbers before you get into assaults. Templars are great in combat, but orks beat you at the attrition game. I'd recommend dropping a plasma pistol out of each assault squad and add a flamer to each. Crowd control is always nice.

Getting back to the command squad... the only models you need to upgrade to is the apothecary and the vet sgt. everyone else should just be a standard guy. That way you are saving some points. Use those points to get more men. Your command squad should be at least 12 models if you take one. That means losing the meltaguns as well. This squads role is only choppy, but when it hits...it hits really hard.

Capt K

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:Thanks for the input, Stelek. You want to give me something I can work with?

Okay, so you think it sucks. That's great. What would you suggest I do? Don't criticize and then not offer any alternative. That doesn't help me.

Well I've posted alot of BT ideas, but for you I'll post more of 'em.

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:
As for the predicting my success, if my opponent does as you suggest and kills my Vindicators and Terminators in turns 1 and 2, suddenly I'm halfway to the opponent's army with 48 Initiates/Neophytes. I can see how it would be difficult at that point for me to chase my opponent down, but I have yet to face an opponent in my 9 years of play that can reliably kill a 24-man squad in a single turn (at 1850 points), with the exception of triple-Russ Imperial Guard and old edition Iron Warriors.

Pretty much every army I've got can put away 20+ marines a turn without difficulty, at short ranges.

Remember, they don't have to kill everyone in the squad. If all you've got left is a chaplain and a PF sarge, you think that's gonna do much to...anyone? Even tau can handle two marines.

I especially enjoy playing BT with my Chaos army. Lash you into short range, annihilate most of your squad, and let you charge the two demon princes standing side by side waiting for you...who go at I6. I think I've run the table on 42 marines in 2 turns with my chaos army, I'll have to ask to make sure.

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:
As an aside, what would you all think if I dropped the two Terminator Squads and took two more 20-man Crusader Squads? I'd have to get rid of the Extra Armor on the Vindicators for it to work.

It would have even less firepower than the previously mentioned list, but I believe the assaulting power of such a list, combined with the overwhelming weight of 89 models (one 2+, forty two 3+, forty six 4+) cannot be denied.

The assault power is awesome. The getting there intact part is crap.

89 models isn't overwhelming. Even marines. IG double that, and it's annoying but only because I have to kill that many guys.

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:
@Karuthors
I'm liking the idea of Las/HB Preds. I've never fielded them before, but seeing as how my army lacks long range anti-tank, they definitely have potential. The reason I'm hesitant to use them, however, is that my Necron opponent would just laugh, and my Tau opponent would eat them alive. Since I play those two armies more than any other faction (GK and World Eaters close behind though), I need to focus on what my strengths as a BT player are against those types of lists, which is Terminators and horde Marines when fighting necrons, and just horde Marines when fighting Tau.

Vehicles aren't the answer.

This is the all infantry list:

1850 Pts - Black Templars Roster

1 Emperor's Champion @ 110 Pts
Frag Grenades; Bolt Pistol; The Black Sword; Crusader Seals; Abhor The Witch, Destroy The Witch
1 The Black Sword @ [0] Pts
1 Armor of Faith @ [0] Pts
1 Crusader Seals @ [0] Pts

1 Marshal @ 117 Pts
Frag Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x1); Power Weapon (x1); Crusader Seals; Abhor The Witch, Destroy The Witch
1 Crusader Seals @ [0] Pts
1 Jump Pack @ [20] Pts

5 Sword Brethren Terminators @ 255 Pts
Power Fist (x5); Storm Bolter (x3); Assault Cannon (x2); Tank Hunters; Abhor The Witch, Destroy The Witch

5 Sword Brethren Terminators @ 255 Pts
Power Fist (x5); Storm Bolter (x3); Assault Cannon (x2); Tank Hunters; Abhor The Witch, Destroy The Witch

5 Sword Brethren Terminators @ 255 Pts
Power Fist (x5); Storm Bolter (x3); Assault Cannon (x2); Tank Hunters; Abhor The Witch, Destroy The Witch

5 Crusader Squad @ 95 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x4); Close Combat Weapon (x4); Lascannon; Abhor The Witch, Destroy The Witch

5 Crusader Squad @ 95 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x4); Close Combat Weapon (x4); Lascannon; Abhor The Witch, Destroy The Witch

5 Crusader Squad @ 95 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x4); Close Combat Weapon (x4); Lascannon; Abhor The Witch, Destroy The Witch

10 Crusader Squad @ 285 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x9); Close Combat Weapon (x8); Meltagun; Power Fist; Neophytes; Abhor The Witch, Destroy The Witch
10 Neophytes @ [100] Pts
Bolt Pistol & CCW (x10); Abhor The Witch, Destroy The Witch

10 Crusader Squad @ 285 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x9); Close Combat Weapon (x8); Meltagun; Power Fist; Neophytes; Abhor The Witch, Destroy The Witch
10 Neophytes @ [100] Pts
Bolt Pistol & CCW (x10); Abhor The Witch, Destroy The Witch

Total Roster Cost: 1847

You can, if you wish, run a bunch of asscannon units (termies, land speeders) backed by predators or land raiders and it will have minimum infantry units but it is quite difficult for some lists to deal with.

It isn't as solid as the list above, but it is viable. If you really want to run any vehicles in a BT army, I'd run 2 or 3 LRC off crusader squads (in 5th edition). They're hard as hell to kill, they make Eldar players cry, and if your crusader squads are half lascannon/half assault...you can run into any mission in 5th edition and succeed.

@Stelek:
I'm glad to see your take on vehicles is to save the points for more troops. I've only recently started fielding them, and TBH, I find them lacking.

Now, some questions about the list you wrote. First, what is the Marshal supposed to do? He has a Jump Pack, but no Teleport Homer (should the Termies Deep Strike). He doesn't have a squad to roll with either. That, in my mind, makes him kind of useless. If he is supposed to walk with the Crusaders, then why not dump the Jump Pack? The only benefit I see it having is allowing him to catapult out of a Crusader Squad when the enemy is just out of 12" Move-Assault range in order to tie them up for a turn.

Some other points. Yeah, I know that 5-Terminator 2-AssCan squads are effective, but the fact that they are a cookie-cutter method of getting rending on the field really irks me. I'd rather be defeated on principle than to win on lies, so to speak, so if I plan on taking Terminators it will not be as min/max units.

I like the two 20-man Squads, obviously. The 5-man Lascannon units seem a little frail -- I'd much rather have an 8-man squad with a Plasma Gun in it. Unfortunately, they're 149 points for Templars.

I really like the idea of using Crusaders. I'm buying a pair of them for cheap from a friend of mine (the same individual who sold me two Crusader Squads and a Command Squad -- he's getting rid of his army in order to buy Blood Angels), and will definitely want to use them on a regular basis.

* * * * *

Given your input, Stelek, what would you think of the following list?

Reclusiarch w/ Bolt Pistol, Crozius, Rosarius, HOA - 106pts

Marshal w/ Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon, Jump Pack, Frag Grenades, HOA, Combat Shield - 126pts

Emperor's Champion w/ Abhor the Witch - 110pts

Crusader Squad (7/7) w/ Power Fist, Meltagun - 207pts
Land Raider Crusader Transport w/ Smoke Launchers - 268pts

Crusader Squad (7/7) w/ Power Fist, Meltagun - 207pts
Land Raider Crusader Transport w/ Smoke Launchers - 268pts

Crusader Squad (8/0) w/ Lascannon, Plasma Gun - 149pts

Crusader Squad (8/0) w/ Lascannon, Plasma Gun - 149pts

Assault Squad (10) w/ Power Fist, 2 Plasma Pistols - 245pts


Totals in at 1835. It has 57 models, of which all those trying to get into CC are moving 12" a turn.

This list incorporates the need for ranged anti-tank that you pointed out, takes advantage of Crusaders (which will take Blessed Hull for tournament settings at the cost of 2 Marines per Las/Plas Squad -- I don't face Eldar outside of tournament settings), and has plenty of choppy power for assault.

CK

I've played a list similar to this at one point, and vs. most top tier armies I can surely tell you that it doesn't work as good as you think it does. Firstly, your trying to make an assault oriented army....shooty. Secondly, the vow you took actually makes certain elements of your army vulnerable. Your lascannon squads are going to run forward, possibly out of cover or any decent firing positions. The Marshal is their for LD10....meh. He has minimal impact other than that. Mech lists run rings around it while they mindlessly zeal towards things they don't want to. Nidzilla just shoot and wait, and Tau crisis suits are killing your termies while the markerlights are pinning your big squads. LD10 in this type of list is mandatory, but then again so is a chaplain. Otherwise you can't control where you want your templars to zeal. At best, you have a 50/50 chance vs. most top lists. You have some good ideas in here, but templars need chaplains to support them.

Capt K

Stelek wrote:This is the all infantry list:

1850 Pts - Black Templars Roster

1 Emperor's Champion @ 110 Pts
Frag Grenades; Bolt Pistol; The Black Sword; Crusader Seals; Abhor The Witch, Destroy The Witch
1 The Black Sword @ [0] Pts
1 Armor of Faith @ [0] Pts
1 Crusader Seals @ [0] Pts

1 Marshal @ 117 Pts
Frag Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x1); Power Weapon (x1); Crusader Seals; Abhor The Witch, Destroy The Witch
1 Crusader Seals @ [0] Pts
1 Jump Pack @ [20] Pts

5 Sword Brethren Terminators @ 255 Pts
Power Fist (x5); Storm Bolter (x3); Assault Cannon (x2); Tank Hunters; Abhor The Witch, Destroy The Witch

5 Sword Brethren Terminators @ 255 Pts
Power Fist (x5); Storm Bolter (x3); Assault Cannon (x2); Tank Hunters; Abhor The Witch, Destroy The Witch

5 Sword Brethren Terminators @ 255 Pts
Power Fist (x5); Storm Bolter (x3); Assault Cannon (x2); Tank Hunters; Abhor The Witch, Destroy The Witch

5 Crusader Squad @ 95 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x4); Close Combat Weapon (x4); Lascannon; Abhor The Witch, Destroy The Witch

5 Crusader Squad @ 95 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x4); Close Combat Weapon (x4); Lascannon; Abhor The Witch, Destroy The Witch

5 Crusader Squad @ 95 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x4); Close Combat Weapon (x4); Lascannon; Abhor The Witch, Destroy The Witch

10 Crusader Squad @ 285 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x9); Close Combat Weapon (x8); Meltagun; Power Fist; Neophytes; Abhor The Witch, Destroy The Witch
10 Neophytes @ [100] Pts
Bolt Pistol & CCW (x10); Abhor The Witch, Destroy The Witch

10 Crusader Squad @ 285 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x9); Close Combat Weapon (x8); Meltagun; Power Fist; Neophytes; Abhor The Witch, Destroy The Witch
10 Neophytes @ [100] Pts
Bolt Pistol & CCW (x10); Abhor The Witch, Destroy The Witch

Total Roster Cost: 1847

Agreed. In my current 1850 list I am running 2 LRC's and 2 predator annihilators with HB sponsons. If your opponent can't stop the raiders, the units that are contained inside surely get there and hit hard. I have also found that using a Drop pod squad or two to pressure the opponent helps. Nobody wants BT's zealing into their lines...so usually, these units are dealt with first...which helps take the pressure off the LRC's. Usually, I hide them/ maneuver them into position while I wait for the pods. If you do go the route of taking LRC's, then taking command squads make better sense. The LRC's go down virtually last. So you can set up after most of the opponents guns are down on the table.

Capt K

Stelek wrote:You can, if you wish, run a bunch of asscannon units (termies, land speeders) backed by predators or land raiders and it will have minimum infantry units but it is quite difficult for some lists to deal with.

It isn't as solid as the list above, but it is viable. If you really want to run any vehicles in a BT army, I'd run 2 or 3 LRC off crusader squads (in 5th edition). They're hard as hell to kill, they make Eldar players cry, and if your crusader squads are half lascannon/half assault...you can run into any mission in 5th edition and succeed.

CaptKaruthors, what would you say is more effective, having several squads of 10-man Drop Podding Marines, having a couple squads of 20-man or 16-man Crusader Squads, or a combination of the two?

I've picked up some foamboard and am planning on making a Drop Pod for my Dreadnought that does not get used much any more, and I wanted to see what you thought as far as viability goes.

I really like fielding the large infantry squads led by Chaplains, but I've seen how brutally effective Drop Pods are. With 10 choppy Marines in each, I think it would make for a rough game for my opponent.

Your input will mean a lot, seeing as how if Drop Pod assault troops are effective, I'll end up not buying an additional 6 boxes of scouts and save the money, building foamcore Drop Pods instead.

* * * * *

Back to the list, do you all think a Damocles Rhino would work as an HQ choice for a more Drop Troops oriented force? The improved comms would make sure things arrived on time, and the Teleport Beacon special rule makes massed Deep Striking viable.

Any input would be great, but it would be put toward another build of list, rather than the current one. Given the metagame in my area, the 2 Crusader list and the 89-model list are both fine for me.

CK

As far as righteous zeal goes, the running forward is optional. A squad of 5 would have to take a morale test at 1 casualty rather than 2, but with the likelihood that they will get pasted to a man if shot at, and with LD10 I don't think the 5 man lascannons are a bad unit in a BT army. Target priority is tough for em, but again we've got the marshall in there for that.

Whether or not the list needed 3 more lascannons with 6 ACs is another question entirely.

To answer for Stelek, the termies aren't going to be deep striking in this list. You won't see any deep striking termies in his lists unless they are bright yellow or bleached bone.

Black TemplOrks are really good if played in true horde fashion IMO and will only get better this summer.

Templorks are exactly the type of army I'm liking. Drop Podding some squads for that rapid-attack feel is nice, but the sheer weight of numbers (that can run in 5th to boot) will be awesome.

CK

The only reason to bring lascannons is so you have some range on your anti-tank units. Most of my armies can dodge termies all day with their 24" range. The termies are escorts for the horde. Any serious issues come their way, silence them with the terminators.

You can always bring land raiders, but there are alot of armies out there that can kill 2 land raiders--and you'll be in trouble.

CaptK seems to feel he can take out the 15 marines in the backfield, the 15 terminators advancing midfield, and the 40 marines advancing midfield. Without taking it on the chin. This army list was designed for 5th edition.

You need to kill all 15 marines in the backfield to prevent the BT army from securing their quarters and their objective. That's alot of long range shots, which is your heavy weapons. So you aren't killing terminators with those heavy weapons. Unless you have so many you can just zap 10 marines dead a turn without a problem. Even at 48", that's difficult.

You need to reduce the terminators to 0 to remove their threat, which might be possible if you fire all of your heavy weapons at them in a turn (from a standard army). So just how many AP2 weapons do you have? Alternatively, how many multi-shot weapons? I'm not saying it isn't possible, since it is, I'm just curious which army is doing this? I've had a difficult time beating an army exactly like this one with my very shooty army lists. There are alot of guys walking towards you. Sure, you can hit enough times to force saves on AC terminators, but that's a fools errand.

If you focus fire into the walking horde, there's a good chance you're going to have a assault unit hitting you the next turn.

Let's think about the basics of this army in 5th.

If you have psykers, which excludes IG and Tau armies [well, usually excludes IG] then you are going to trigger the witch move.

Pregame, everyone runs forward. The lascannons and terminators don't matter a whole lot, but the terminators with a normal move will likely be in range of something.
That's better than normal terminators.

If the BT player goes first, he gets his regular move plus a run move for his horde units...which puts them somewhere between 6+2-12" closer to you. That means on average, on his very next turn he's got a viable assault threat banging on your door--and if you shoot his unit and fail to kill it, you're going to end up getting assaulted on your turn 1. This is not easily beaten.

Then he has 3 terminator units somewhere between 7-12" off the starting line. That means you will be taking fire from the terminators. If you've completely hidden your army or are out of range, his terminators will run forward.

He also has 3 lascannon squads which may or may not be out in the open, but will definitely be in range of you.
If they have no targets worth shooting at (a vehicle-less army, for example) they might as well move forward and run on the first turn so they are in prime position to cover their own quarter/objectives, and of course to provide extra las/bolter fire at long range from midfield.

So to cap it all off, against the armies that can handle a BT assault rush...the truth is, you really can't.

The witch move + the first turn running cuts on average an entire turn out of the game. A turn you needed to shoot the BT army.

Now what happens when one unit rushes forward, either a terminator unit or a horde unit. Odds are with 5 of them, one will.

12" deploy + 6" pregame move + 6" regular move + 6" run.

Next turn, they move 6" and assault 6".

That's 42". What, marine armies cannot be successful running forward but stealer shock is successful? Come on. Turn 2 assaults are common for BT players in 5th edition. Even just being in your deployment zone on turn 2 seriously f*cks with anything you want to do. They didn't drop pod in, they ran across the table at you.

All you do is deploy your army centrally so no matter which side he deploys to, he can't avoid your army running right at you.

If he goes first, well you find where you want to assault and move units right into his setup.

In short, Templars have a huge boost coming for them in 5th Edition - a boost that, IMHO, is needed after the nerf from Codex: Armageddon to Codex: Black Templars.

Then again, a 2nd turn charge with that many models is pretty obscene.

CK

I'm wondering what would happen if this army ran up against an army of CC focused Eldar. 30 angry Banshees, Storm Guardians, Avatar, Farseer with Doom/Fortune, and 3 Wraithlords. IMHO, that would be a game to watch! Someone has to do that sometime

If you have that many models which are running and zealing toward the lines of you opponent in 5th edition, it will be very scrary. The idea of my immortal squads blasting away at you and then you zealing eight inches, moving six inshes, running six inches and then assaulting me after only ne turn of shooting, is very scary and will render my current Necron list totally ineffective against you.

As far as righteous zeal goes, the running forward is optional.

Um...no...it's not optional.

Capt K

Like I said, while your list may have some valid options in it, I am talking about how it works now...i.e. in 4th edition. 5th edition is a whole other ball of wax...of which I choose not to address in my comments since that doesn't really help him right now. Yes, you would be correct to assume that your list would work good in 5th edition, but I still see mobile armies chewing it up. Even if you are running forward, it is very easy to deal with one unit at a time in this manner. I've seen it countless times. Then you also have to take into account terrain. I'm not really disagreeing with the strength of your list, just the logic that it is somehow uber.

Capt K

Stelek wrote:The only reason to bring lascannons is so you have some range on your anti-tank units. Most of my armies can dodge termies all day with their 24" range. The termies are escorts for the horde. Any serious issues come their way, silence them with the terminators.

You can always bring land raiders, but there are alot of armies out there that can kill 2 land raiders--and you'll be in trouble.

CaptK seems to feel he can take out the 15 marines in the backfield, the 15 terminators advancing midfield, and the 40 marines advancing midfield. Without taking it on the chin. This army list was designed for 5th edition.

You need to kill all 15 marines in the backfield to prevent the BT army from securing their quarters and their objective. That's alot of long range shots, which is your heavy weapons. So you aren't killing terminators with those heavy weapons. Unless you have so many you can just zap 10 marines dead a turn without a problem. Even at 48", that's difficult.

You need to reduce the terminators to 0 to remove their threat, which might be possible if you fire all of your heavy weapons at them in a turn (from a standard army). So just how many AP2 weapons do you have? Alternatively, how many multi-shot weapons? I'm not saying it isn't possible, since it is, I'm just curious which army is doing this? I've had a difficult time beating an army exactly like this one with my very shooty army lists. There are alot of guys walking towards you. Sure, you can hit enough times to force saves on AC terminators, but that's a fools errand.

If you focus fire into the walking horde, there's a good chance you're going to have a assault unit hitting you the next turn.

Let's think about the basics of this army in 5th.

If you have psykers, which excludes IG and Tau armies [well, usually excludes IG] then you are going to trigger the witch move.

Pregame, everyone runs forward. The lascannons and terminators don't matter a whole lot, but the terminators with a normal move will likely be in range of something.
That's better than normal terminators.

If the BT player goes first, he gets his regular move plus a run move for his horde units...which puts them somewhere between 6+2-12" closer to you. That means on average, on his very next turn he's got a viable assault threat banging on your door--and if you shoot his unit and fail to kill it, you're going to end up getting assaulted on your turn 1. This is not easily beaten.

Then he has 3 terminator units somewhere between 7-12" off the starting line. That means you will be taking fire from the terminators. If you've completely hidden your army or are out of range, his terminators will run forward.

He also has 3 lascannon squads which may or may not be out in the open, but will definitely be in range of you.
If they have no targets worth shooting at (a vehicle-less army, for example) they might as well move forward and run on the first turn so they are in prime position to cover their own quarter/objectives, and of course to provide extra las/bolter fire at long range from midfield.

So to cap it all off, against the armies that can handle a BT assault rush...the truth is, you really can't.

The witch move + the first turn running cuts on average an entire turn out of the game. A turn you needed to shoot the BT army.

Now what happens when one unit rushes forward, either a terminator unit or a horde unit. Odds are with 5 of them, one will.

12" deploy + 6" pregame move + 6" regular move + 6" run.

Next turn, they move 6" and assault 6".

That's 42". What, marine armies cannot be successful running forward but stealer shock is successful? Come on. Turn 2 assaults are common for BT players in 5th edition. Even just being in your deployment zone on turn 2 seriously f*cks with anything you want to do. They didn't drop pod in, they ran across the table at you.

All you do is deploy your army centrally so no matter which side he deploys to, he can't avoid your army running right at you.

If he goes first, well you find where you want to assault and move units right into his setup.

I wouldn't use more than 2 drop pod units if you are mixing them with foot units. Their biggest focus should be close range shooting and tank busting. It pays to put a Meltagun and Powerfist in each squad. They really are there as a distraction and to take pressure off the other elements of your army. If they get into a combat, great. Having too many is problematic since Templars are easily dealt with in chunks. Dreads are okay, but I'd rather spend the points on a Predator. Currently my army is using 2 LRC's, 2 pods, 2 preds as the foundation of my army. It's been working rather well. I've thought about using a Damocles Rhino, but I have found that I'd rather have another chaplain running around instead. You always can use a Land Raider Promethius to get the same benefit as the Damocles, but at least it has guns and can transport men. The only downside is that the Promethius only has anti-infantry weapons and nothing to bust tanks. That's why the LRC still edges it out in performance.

Capt K

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:CaptKaruthors, what would you say is more effective, having several squads of 10-man Drop Podding Marines, having a couple squads of 20-man or 16-man Crusader Squads, or a combination of the two?

I've picked up some foamboard and am planning on making a Drop Pod for my Dreadnought that does not get used much any more, and I wanted to see what you thought as far as viability goes.

I really like fielding the large infantry squads led by Chaplains, but I've seen how brutally effective Drop Pods are. With 10 choppy Marines in each, I think it would make for a rough game for my opponent.

Your input will mean a lot, seeing as how if Drop Pod assault troops are effective, I'll end up not buying an additional 6 boxes of scouts and save the money, building foamcore Drop Pods instead.

* * * * *

Back to the list, do you all think a Damocles Rhino would work as an HQ choice for a more Drop Troops oriented force? The improved comms would make sure things arrived on time, and the Teleport Beacon special rule makes massed Deep Striking viable.

Any input would be great, but it would be put toward another build of list, rather than the current one. Given the metagame in my area, the 2 Crusader list and the 89-model list are both fine for me.

CK

CaptKaruthors wrote:

As far as righteous zeal goes, the running forward is optional.

Um...no...it's not optional.

Capt K

Ok, it seems like no one really knows this...

I didn't say that consolidating was optional. i said that moving was.

righteous zeal says (paraphrased.. I'm at work) When you pass a leadership test you MUST move d6" in a way IDENTICAL to a consolidate move.

Consolidate move says "you MAY move UP TO 3"

The ruling i have heard, is that consolidate moves give you a maximum optional move, from 0 to the result of a D6.


Furthermore, from BaronTuman on the Bolter and Chainsword Black Templars FAQ...

Anyway... I asked him [Phil Kelly] about Massacre movement "When you get a Massacre move and roll a 5, do you have to move the full distance or can you move less?" His answer was you don't have to move the full distance at all, and you can even choose not to move. He even went so far as to say "It's right there in black and white, I don't see why there's any confusion." So the answer to this one is definitely "up to".

I then went on to ask him "So, righteous zeal says you move 'Exactly like a Massacre', so does that mean that Templars zealing 6" can choose to only move a fraction of an inch toward the enemy?". His response was that exactly means exactly, and that his 'mate' does this all the time and yes that's how it was intended.


You can come back and argue if you want... but I'm gonna just stick by my "optional" statement.

Dude, when it says "must", that usually implies movement....do you have to go the whole distance? No. But you have to move towards the nearest enemy unit. It is clearly not an "option" that you can ignore. When you zeal, you have to move. How far you really want to go is up to you, but the rule says "must move".

Once again, it's not optional. Not moving is not an option.

Capt K