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I am A nwer eldar player and I am joining a begginers leuge where most of the players will probably have gone for the safe choice of space marine armies anything I need to know about the space marines (units I should watch out for, stradigies on killing them ect.)?

There is a whole lot of information that can be imparted on this subject but rather than write a book, I’ll see if I can keep things somewhat general and not too long (which would be a first for me).

The biggest thing that marines have going for them is their armor. 3+ saves are no joke. However, as an eldar player, you have lots of options for dealing with it. There are 2 major ways of getting around it. The first is using weapons that don’t allow them a save. For reference purposes we will call this the “Penetration” method. The other is using weapons that rain so many wounds down on them that they end up failing saves simply due to the law of averages. For reference purposes we will call this the “Rain” method. A good eldar army will have several elements that fall into each category and it is possible to have a few units that fall into both (at the same time).

There are a few things to keep in mind with these methods. The first is that if you are loading up on shooting, marines in cover will get a save against your shooting even if it normally ignores their armor saves. While the cover save will be lower than their normal armor save, the fact that, in general, you end up with fewer AP 3 (or better) shots than ones with worse AP means that your killing efficiency goes down when shooting at guys in cover. So you want to try to employ the Rain method against marines in cover and focus your “Penetration” forces on targets that are not in cover. Again, this is a rule of thumb to maximize your effectiveness rather than something you must always do to be successful.

Here are some examples of some good Penetration units
Anything with a star cannon
Howling banshees
Fire dragons

Here are some examples of some good Rain units
Anything with a scatter laser
Dire Avengers
Striking scorpions
Anything with a flamer or destructor

Some units end up falling into both categories
Dark reapers
Harlequins

In general, regardless of who you are fighting, the best way to go about things is to figure out which units in your enemy’s army are the most dangerous to you and go after them first. For marines you need to watch out for things like devastator squads, assault squads, anything in a rhino, whirlwinds (although not many people play with those due to their ineffectiveness against armies with 3+ saves), land speeders, and terminators. Once the main threats are eliminated, concentrate on fulfilling mission objectives.

Now with all of this having been said, I can give you some more specific advice if I have an idea of what units you are planning on using. Do you have an army list set up yet or are you still building one? What models do you own currently and are you likely to get any new ones soon?

Hq:autarch with shuriken pistol and chainsword.
Elites: 5 howling banshees with an with an ecxarch (not sure what weapons to give it)
5 howling banshees
5 fire dragons with an ecxarch (with a flamer)
5 fire dragons
troops: 10 guardians two of witch being haevy weapons platform gunners (the platform has a scatter laser)
10 dire avengers with an ecxarch ( with a pw and a shimer shield)
heavy support: 1 falcon with a pulse laser and a scatter laser
1 wraithlord (not built yet)
fast attack: 1 viper with a scatter laser.

Im planning on buying another falcon and a farseer.

so is the goal with your army someting like

Farseer
Autarch
10 banshees
2x falcon
2x fire dragons that ride in falcons
guardians, dire avengers, etc

other stuff

seems reasonably solid to me. The only questions I'd have are:
how do you plan on getting the banshees into combat (or, if the banshees go in the falcons, how do you plan on getting the fire dragons into range)
How do you plan on getting the autarch into combat
Who will the farseer cast his spells on?

Nothing you list in your army is specifically "bad" against marines (though harlequins would be better than banshees). One thing thats nice about marines is since everyone has a 3+ save you don't have to spend much time worrying "well, my dire avengers would really tear up unit X, should I shoot at them or should I shoot at the scarier target Y?". You just shoot the most dangerous marines.

Everything Phoenix said was spot on. Your army seems to have plenty of anti-armor 13 so I would say you should be ok for the other think that marines may throw at you. Eldar have strength 6 weapons out the wazoo so you shouldn't need to worry about killing speeders or rhinos.

Really, every game of 40k is largely about figuring out what enemy units are the biggest threat and trying to eliminate them or render them ineffective. Your amy looks like it will be reasonably well balanced to do this against most enemies.

Im probably going to keep my banshees behind my dire avengers that way the enemy cant get line of sight on them and they can still countercharge as for the farseer Im probably going to use guide on the wraithlord and take mindwar to elimate any problem units.

foxwolf wrote:Hq:autarch with shuriken pistol and chainsword.

This guy needs some gear. Right now the only thing this Autarch is bringing to your army is a little bit of leadership and +1 to your reserve rolls. If that is all you want him to do (and you plan on keeping him in the back of your army not doing much else) then the bare bones setup you have will work. If you plan on having this guy see some action, then you need to give him some more gear. You could give him a power weapon or maybe mandiblasters and then have him run with the banshees (you may have to drop one banshee but I'll talk about that later).

Elites: 5 howling banshees with an with an exarch (not sure what weapons to give it)
5 howling banshees

The only hand to hand unit that you should ever run with less than 8 members is harlequins and then only if you are putting them in a falcon. With banshees you need to run large squads both to do enough damage to cripple your targets and to soak up some hits either from getting shot on the way in or from return attacks in hand to hand. As lambadomy mentioned, harlequins would probably be a better choice than banshees (particularly when you don't have a transport) but we are trying to work with what you have. Speaking of what you have, I would highly suggest that you look into getting some wave serpents. Banshees go from bring target practice for your enemies to being a serious threat when they have a transport. The trick with the transport is to drive it up close to the target and wait a turn. On the following turn if the transport hasn't been destroyed or the exit blocked, disembark the banshees before the transport moves. Since the banshees got out before the transport moved, they can move their normal movement, fleet, and then charge. As far as the exarch goes, I always give mine an executioner. The strength 5 weapon goes quite a way to ensuring you get some kills as opposed to the more random (although equal on average) mirror blades. Skip the exarch powers as they are not really worth it. If you plan to run the Autarch with them and you do manage to get a wave serpent for them (highly recommended) then you'll need to drop the squad down to 8 normal banshees, 1 exarch and the Autarch so that they can all fit in the transport.

5 fire dragons with an ecxarch (with a flamer)
5 fire dragons

Another unit that requires a transport to do it's job. You can either buy some wave serpents to put these guys in or just put them in the flacons. Small squad sizes work well for dragons so don't worry about the two units of 5, they will do fine. If you get the chance, you might want to bump them up to 6 man units for a little bit of extra fire power and better scoring status but it isn't necessary. As far as the exarch goes, I don't like fire dragon exarchs. If given fusion guns or fire pikes they do exactly what the rest of the squad does only slightly better...which is totally not worth the points spent on them. If given a flamer, they become an anti troop model inside an anti tank unit. This means that unless you manage to position yourself in such a was as to place a foot squad between your dragons and the tank they are shooting at, the flamer is worthless. What can be even worse is that the presence of the flamer can tempt you to put the squad in position to shoot something that isn't a tank (or a terminator squad) and that's just a bad plan. So all in all I would leave the exarch at home and just bring normal dragons. If you are married to the exarch then you'll have to see what works out best for you.

troops: 10 guardians two of witch being heavy weapons platform gunners (the platform has a scatter laser)

These guys work out well. Just have them hang back and provide long range support for the rest of your troops. If something starts making it's way into your back lines, move up and open up with your catapults on them.

10 dire avengers with an ecxarch ( with a pw and a shimer shield)

This is another unit that really has to have a wave serpent to do well. With an 18" range gun and 4+ armor, they are just too frail to march across the field. If you are trying to keep them on foot, then try to keep them out of sight as much as possible until they are in range. I would also not leave home without buying blade storm for them. The increase in fire power is totally worth it when you are dealing with a unit that rarely gets more than one round of shooting in anyway. One thing you can possibly do if you are still running both the avengers and the banshees on foot... Have the avengers take the lead and hold the banshees back some. The avengers can move up and shoot. Sooner or later something is going to get them in hand to hand. Once that happens, run the banshees up for a counter charge. The Avengers should be able to live though a round of hand to hand with most units and not take too much damage.

heavy support: 1 falcon with a pulse laser and a scatter laser

I would suggest that you take off the scatter laser and swap it for a star cannon. The puls laser that's already on the falcon is ap 2 and you could really benefit from having another ap 2 weapon with more than 12" range in your army.

1 wraithlord (not built yet)

The best build I've found for a dreadnaught so far is bright lance and missile launcher. The only issue with that is its an anti tank build and your army seems to have plenty of anti tank power (although its all short ranged) in the fire dragons. You may want to play around with the load out on your dreadnaught before you paint it. If you find long range anti tank is what you need, the go with the lance and missile launcher. If you want an anti troop load out, go with star cannon and scatter laser. Twin flamers on the arms is always the way to go.

fast attack: 1 viper with a scatter laser.

Sounds good

Im planning on buying another falcon and a farseer.

The additional flacon will be great to give your second fire dragon squad a ride. The farseer will have some choices to make. Giving him guide and either fortune or doom will allow him to seriously increase the power of the dire avengers. Giving him doom will allow him to boost the killing power of the banshees quite a bit too. If you put him on a jetbike (some conversion required) it will allow him to zip around the battle field and apply his powers where they will be most useful, although if you have a sound plan for him from the beginning, it won't be necessary. And as I mentioned a couple of times before, you may want to look into getting a couple (or at the very least, 1) wave serpents for your other units.

Check your rulebook. As of 4th ed, man-sized models don't block line of sight.

What about those eldar rocket launchers?

What about twin linked plasma rocket launcher on a wave serpent with some assaulty unit riding in the back?

I don't like eldar missile launcher as all. Blast templates rarely if ever hit more than 2 models and strength 8 isn't all that great if you start seeing stuff with AV 13 or 14. I would much rather the power of the bright lance for anti tank and the killing power of scatter lasers or star cannons for killing troops. The only real benifit of the missile launcher is that it's the only heavy weapon with a 48" range and the only things you are likely to have in a position to make use of that range are vypers, dark reapers or war walkers. All other units are most likely going to be in forward positions where 36" range weapons will be more than enough to shoot whatever they want to.

The pinning is pretty useful though.

Nurglitch wrote:The pinning is pretty useful though.

Chance to pass a pin check at leadership 8 = 72.2%
Chance to pass a pin check at leadership 9 = 83.3%
Chance to pass a pin check at leadership 10 = 91.7%

So I would disagree with you. Even at the best likely situation (ld 8) there is only a 1/4 chance of pinning a unit. Those are not odds I would bet on and I would much rather kill a few extra guys than take a long shot at pinning a squad. Admittedly, if you load up on missile launchers and snipers you may be able to force enough pin checks on a single unit to make it likely that they will fail. The question becomes "Is it worth it?" since you have to give up a lot of killing power to make it reliable. In the end, I don't believe it is worth it.

linked template weapon, but it is not indirect fire and no minimum range. You reroll to wounds.

You have the range to pump one onto what ever you plan to assault first turn shooting. With a tiny amountof luck you pin the target. You move up, pump another plus the linked shurikens plus your assault infantry shooting who then move into the assult being elven fleet of foot and all.

A linked scatter laser is still BS 3 with reroll to hits vs one roll to hit with a template and reroll to wounds using the plasma rocket (and a little better AP value to boot).

Now.....is a rocket launcher able to shoot both types of rocket, or are they entirely seperate types launchers?

Reread your rules. The EML plasma shot is not a template weapon but a blast weapon. You don't get to reroll wounds.

As for your last question, the codex contains your answer. Do they list two types of launchers, or one?

TC it says 'take the blast marker....." but, after rereading AGAIN you may be right - it is a reroll of the 'To Hit', and then place the marker.

So given THAT - it might be even better.

And as for your answer to my other question, why not just answer it, instead of being a prickasaurus?

Were you ever new at anything?

Would rangers be a good addition to my army?

Does being new make you illiterate? This forum is not a replacement for rulebooks. If your codex says there is a krak missile launcher and a plasma missile launcher, then that is the case. If it says there is a missile launcher, period, and lists two firing modes, then that is the case. Cheers.

foxwolf wrote:Would rangers be a good addition to my army?

It kind of depends on where you want to take your army. From the units you have, going mechanized seems like the best option for you. This would require you to go for more mobile units and transports to fly them around in. On the other hand, you could shoot for a more balanced force in which case, long range support would be what you need. Rangers or pathfinders would be a good start towards this if that is what you want to do.

Phoenix wrote:

foxwolf wrote:Would rangers be a good addition to my army?

It kind of depends on where you want to take your army. From the units you have, going mechanized seems like the best option for you. This would require you to go for more mobile units and transports to fly them around in. On the other hand, you could shoot for a more balanced force in which case, long range support would be what you need. Rangers or pathfinders would be a good start towards this if that is what you want to do.

This thread has just been chock full of great advice from Phoenix.
We differ on the value of a Fire Dragon exarch... that's about it.
So, a pat on the back for you, Phoenix. I'm sure the OP appreciates someone coming in with posts full of great info, instead of a condescending attitude and a reminder to read his rulebooks.

I would like to add that, if you're taking Rangers, you might as well upgrade them to Pathfinders if you can find the points.
A 2+ COVER save is something you just can't get, typically.

You'll also want to look at the upgrades for tanks.
As Cheesey as some people complain about it being, an Eldar tank with ALL the upgrades is probably the closest you can get to "unkillable" on a tank in the 40K game, if played right.

Eric

thanks for the advice guys.

Oh and I bought the farseer and the falcon yesterday along with a warlock.

@Pheonix
If you're placing your autarch with the banshees, you'll want a banshee mask instead of a mandiblaster. Reason being that otherwise when you charge your opponent will remove the models the harlies kill from those in B2B with your autarch, leaving him nothing to strike.

Striking scopions can do reasonably well with only 6 members, as the exarch is the heavy hitter of the squad. Banshees really need the full crew, though. I wouldn't bother to add a exarch to banshees, they aren't cost efficient. Also, since a wave serpent has a transport capacity of 12, you can add the autarch in to a full 10 man squad of banshees and still have room for one more.

Other than that, I sort of like 5 dragons in with dragon's breath exarch in a falcon, it makes them more versatile vs. opponents with little or no vehicles. Of course, I also like to stuff Yriel in too, so they can jump out and blast some troops with less to fear from a subsequent assualt.

Mnemoch wrote:
If you're placing your autarch with the banshees, you'll want a banshee mask instead of a mandiblaster. Reason being that otherwise when you charge your opponent will remove the models the harlies kill from those in B2B with your autarch, leaving him nothing to strike.

A very good point.

Striking scopions can do reasonably well with only 6 members, as the exarch is the heavy hitter of the squad.

While the exarch is, in fact, the heavy hitter most of the time, if you are actualy attacking targets that are ideal for scorpions (lightly armored horde units that are not present in marine armies) then the additional scorpions really are what's doing the damge. Regardless of the targe though, the additional numbers are needed to soak up damage when you get shot or suffer return attacks. I would still advise 8 if at all possible.

You're half-right on the Scorps, Phoenix. Thing is, if you go for a 6-warrior squad, then you have effectively changed what constitutes an "ideal target." Of course such a squad would be a little disadvantaged against weenies compared to a full-strength squad. That's fine: by configuring the squad that way, you're choosing to use them the way you would use Banshees, with the additional benefit that you can fit them in a Falcon.

Phoenix wrote:So I would disagree with you. Even at the best likely situation (ld 8) there is only a 1/4 chance of pinning a unit. Those are not odds I would bet on and I would much rather kill a few extra guys than take a long shot at pinning a squad. Admittedly, if you load up on missile launchers and snipers you may be able to force enough pin checks on a single unit to make it likely that they will fail. The question becomes "Is it worth it?" since you have to give up a lot of killing power to make it reliable. In the end, I don't believe it is worth it.

It's always worth it, because pinning takes a unit out of the game for an entire turn - no moving or shooting. That's far more useful than just killing a few extra models. One turn, especially for Eldar, is long enough to concentrate on other units, and then go back and wiped out the previously pinned unit.

I'm a big fan of pinning checks myself. Sure, any one check is not likely to succeed, but you can force more than one per turn ( I think that is correct, don't have my BGB with me) and I agree with Nurglitch that pinning 10 guys is preferable to killing three or four MEQ.

I play the models I like, they aren't necessarily the most competitive ( I don't run falcons, though I do take a serpent). More importantly they are the models I have right now, so I use them. With that being said, I usually do fairly well; One of the reasons I play decently is that I have an idea of the capabilities of my units. This is particularly important for Eldar given how fragile most of their units are. You should know before you shoot, charge, or whatever you are doing what you're odds are. For instance, I know with 9 avenger cats using bladestorm I should kill 3 MEQs. Therefore I know what is a long shot or isnt.

I am very intrigued with pathfinder upgrade - so intrigued I bought the models and they are making the first games - which involves a 7 hour drive to see my son so hey I ain't just packing junk (I hope).

AP 1 on a roll of 5 AND 6 to HIT (that is to hit) - 5 guys have 5 shots hitting on 2+ wounding on 4+ and pinning - and they get 2+ concealed save. They can shoot the big nasties like Ctan or demons.

Come on, what is not to like? The models ARE cool. I use way watchers in fantasy (very effectively I might add) so why would these cool dudes and dudettes not work? I think they have better rules and capability for the points than way watchers in fantasy.

What I have learned in OTHER games is you have a specialized unit (like way watcher or pathfinders or what have you) and a new player tries them twice and decides they suck - and it is a skill issue not a GW can't write rules or balanced books issue.

Beriothien, in case you aren't already doing so, try combining the Pathfinders with Doom. The reason should be obvious.

If you plan to run the Autarch with them and you do manage to get a wave serpent for them (highly recommended) then you'll need to drop the squad down to 8 normal banshees, 1 exarch and the Autarch so that they can all fit in the transport.

I can't believe that no one else has picked up on this.

@Pheonix. You've given a some great advice on this thread however something you've overlooked is that Wave serpents hold 12 models. So if Foxwolf wants to run his 10 Banshees with Exarch and an Autarch in the 1 wave serpent then he is perfectly capable of doing so.

Other than that the advice on this thread is spot on.

ps I'd agree with TC on the pathfinders. I've 20 and as long as you can avoid them getting into CC and if you vou can combine doom with them then your laughing all the way to the bank. It's a lot of bang for your buck.

pps good luck with your your Eldar. At least it's not another MEQ army. Good for you. Hard to learn but tough to beat. lol

Brother Bartius wrote:@Pheonix. You've given a some great advice on this thread however something you've overlooked is that Wave serpents hold 12 models. So if Foxwolf wants to run his 10 Banshees with Exarch and an Autarch in the 1 wave serpent then he is perfectly capable of doing so.

Over sight on my part. I've spent too many editions playing with 10 guys in a transport, it's sometimes hard to get it out of my head. Mistakes happen, that's why I got you guys here to straighten me out when I slip up.

Other than that the advice on this thread is spot on.

Good to see I still mostly have my edge. Now if I can just get that 12 thing hammered into my head, I should be good to go.

lol m8 keep up the good advice, I for one is listening.

I just had to point that one slip up out.

Glad to add to this great thread.