My Eldar vs. Deamonhunters - tips and tricks

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**Schepp himself**

Hi Guys,
Today i played my first game vs pure Deamonhunters and I lost.
The list seemed perfectly kitted to kill my list, so I'm asking if this is inherent in the lists or if I've done too many mistakes

My list is roughly:
Avatar
Fortune/Guide seer
Dire Avengers with defend, SS and PW x2
Jetbikes with cannon
Pathfinders
Dark Reaper with missle exarch
Wraithlord
Falcon with Dragons

His list was somewhat like this:
Inquisitor and Captain with Terminator Armor plus 4 Termies (2 Psycannons)
Callidus Assassin
Squad of Grey knights (incinerator)
Dreadnought with assaultcannon and incinerator
Purgation squad with 4 Psycannons (10 men strong)
Stormtrooper with 2xplasma

I couldn't shoot that much due to shrouding and my reapers hadn't had a good spot to hide (where the problem with shrouding would still kick in). The massive Amount of S6 Ap4 fire whacked my Rangers, the avatar and a squad of Avengers. The rest of my army was pretty much wiped out in close combat. The Assassin tied up and killed my reapers and farseer. She pretty much single handed dealed with the Wraithlord, reapers and the seer. I killed his dread, the rhino and the grey knight squad.

Was my army list too bad? Or was there a chance to beat his list (somewhat stupid question, but I ask anyway), The luck was clearly on his side and I made some mistakes (but not many), but the list seemed tooled even though I'm know it wasn't.

Help would be appreciated!

Greets
Schepp himself

**Two Daemons in a Bar**

Ok. So Daemonhunters killed you. With your current list, the only thing i can say is: No really? They did this because you have too, no, much too few dedicated assault troops. The eldar have lots of these, and the Avatar is not invincible. He cannot, will not, should not, guard your entire army against Grey Knights. Even with Wraithlord support. Go get some Banshees. The shrouding is GW's way of kicking you in the groin without giving you the possibility to sue them. Any shooty army is neck deep the minute Grey Knights hit the table slottabase first. So you wanna take lots of Banshees and have them loiter around behind your Avatar. Scratch Guide, get Doom. Since your banshees are only S3, a little Doom goes a long way. Max out the squads. Take lots of Guardians with Starcannons. They are cheaper and the platforms have a slight chance of putting a dent in the GK's. Use them as cheap cannon fodder. Tie up the enemy squads in CC and wait for the Banshees to arrive. Cut him to pieces. Repeat as neccesary. Guardians with Starcannon is the key word. Maxed out squads. Keep the falcon. Jetbikes are awkward in this list. You don't have any real fast units other than the Falcon and Dragons that can keep up with them, so as a troops choice, with this list, they are not well situated. Also, one Falcon and a Wraithlord is not enough hard targets. Even with the limited amount of firepower this guy has, two hard targets are too easy to bring down. But thats just my words of probable uselesness.

**Schepp himself**

Oookay.
First, my list wasn't designed for grey knights. Howling banshees came to mind.

The Falcon and the Wraithlord were pretty much resistant against his constant S6 bombardment but couldn't do much due to the shrouding and a rampaging Assassin (which I officially hate from today on). How nasty is that girl anyway?

But thanks for the input, I consider tweaking my list towards more counter attack.

Greets
Schepp himself

**Blackmoor**

#1. Shrouding is 3d6x3 so the average visibility is 32” so shrouding should not hurt you too much.

#2. What are your weapons on your Wraithlord and Falcon?

#3. Fire Dragons are worthless. You need an assault unit.

#4. I think you got into the habit of setting up your Dark Reapers by spreading them out in cover. You should have packed them tightly together anywhere they have a good field of fire. They have several advantages. The first is that you can start them hiding behind the Avatar so they do not get killed if you do not win the first turn, the second is that they all get there attacks against the Assassin.

#5. Whenever you know that you are going to face a Callidus Assassin, Space Wolf Scouts, or Snikkrot, you need to keep counter assault units in the rear to protect your firebase.

#6. Target priority. Storm Troopers are short range, the Grey Knights with incinerators are short range so they are not factors. Your Wraithlord should kill the dreadnought easily, and your Falcon should take out the Terminators. This leaves the Purgation squad that your Dark Reapers should kill, and then you can kill the rest at your leisure.

#7. There is no way that a Callidus Assassin can kill your Wraithlord.

#8. Never equip Dire Avengers for assault. Give them Bladestorm and the Exarch 2 SC and call it a day.

**Schepp himself**

Thanks for replying, blackmoor.

#1 If you consider that I try to maximize the distance between Reapers and enemy units due to their superior range, it can become a problem. But I agree that I overestimated the shrouding.

#2 Bright lance and Missle launcher

#3 since when are dragons in a falcon worthless? Ok, they hadn't many targets to kill, but considering that deamonhunters like to bring a land raider or two, i would consider them quite good.

#4 True dat, my reaper deplyoment was pretty crappy indeed, especially because he hadn't any AP3 fire but I acted like he had.

#5 Well, I didn't know...

#6 The Storm troopers were detached by my jetbikes with sideshots, the surviving two were gunned down afterwards. Do you mean Falcon with Dragons or the Falcon by itself. I played it not overly aggressive, but it was shaken often. So I don't see that much offensive potential. But good point with target priority.

#7 I knew that, but the annoying jump back rule allowed her to dance out of combat when it got hot... so it attacked my Reapers or the farseer and when my wraithlord attacked, she jumped away.

#8 It was the test run for two defend squads, before that i had one for shooting and one for defend. Problem is that with whatever I equip them, they don't use nearly any of their skills.

Greets
Schepp himself

**Two Daemons in a Bar**

The Fire Dragons become worthless if you have equipped the rest of your squads and vehicles right. Your Falcon should ideally be configured for anti tank/meq, with f.ex a starcannon and Bright Lance. If your opponent hasn't taken blessed hull, you can give two land raiders a good kicking, no problem. However, he will give them blessed hull. So basically you just have to keep shooting at the Raiders, while you make sure your wraithlord is a lean, mean, infantry-killing machine. Scatter Laser and Starcannon, yessir! Also, what the **** inspired you to come after the Callidus in CC?! No offence, but IMHO, that makes you the Eldar equivalent of Forrest Gump. NEVER(!!!) engage a Callidus in CC unless it is a last ditch attempt to get some VP's. A Callidus MUST be given a good, long ranged kick in the groin with a high str weapon ASAP! You might as well try to eat a primed grenade!

**tegeus-Cromis**

Your Falcon should ideally be configured for anti tank/meq, with f.ex a starcannon and Bright Lance.

Congrats, Two Daemons. You win today's "Pulling Stuff Out of Your Arse" award.

1) Are you aware that you can only give a Falcon one heavy weapon (other than the extra shuricannon you can swap the TL shuricats for)?

2) Are you also aware that a Falcon with a BL will only be able to shoot it when stationary (ha!) or after the pulse laser has been blown off?

3) Have you ever, in fact, played Eldar?

**Blackmoor**

Two Demons was on the right track, but he got derailed somewhere.

The Falcon should be armed with a Starcannon, and hunt down elite units.

The Wraithlord should be armed with a Brightlance and a Missile Launcher and be your primary anti-tank weapon.

**tegeus-Cromis**

I don't know, Blackmoor. Your opinion has a lot of experience (and thus credibility) behind it, but I have not had much luck "hunting" anything with Falcons myself. It's not that I'm not taking care to minimise return fire--after some hard lessons from Lootas, I always make sure to do this--but a good list always seems to have something mobile enough to shakelock my two Falcons 2 turns out of 3. The cheaper scatter laser is preferable IMO.

**Two Daemons in a Bar**

Ah. Bugger. I need to read that codex again soon. I thought the falcon could swap it's pulse laser (aye, call me a noob. Bigtime) for something more killy. Take the starcannon instead, go hunt his ugly purification squad. Have the wraithlord go kaboom and dakka-dakka on the Raiders/Dreds/Whatever peeks outa the bushes in an annoying way. Again, kill the Callidus before she does more damage than she by law is entitled to. Use cannon fodder. Guardians are like diapers. They keep the crap confined to where you can handle it if used properly. Banshees and Starcannons are best applied like baby oil. When in doubt, go nuts with it/them.

**tegeus-Cromis**

Well, the pulse laser is already the killiest thing it can mount. It's not a Lance weapon, but it gets two shots and a higher range. All in all, a good trade (assuming you can get anti-AV14 elsewhere in the list).

**skyth**

Blackmoor wrote:

#7. There is no way that a Callidus Assassin can kill your Wraithlord.

She can, it's just EXTREMELY unlikely...

**Schepp himself**

For the record, I attacked the Callidus with my wraithlord to make her jump back so that she doesn't kill off my farseer and/or dark reapers. I took the chances that she might fail her jump back roll or she doesn't fall back enough inches (so i can get in hth with my consolidation move). Sadly, I hadn't any cheap units nearby because they were either destroyed or fighting silver surfers on the other side of the table. As I said, the callidus caught me completely by surprise.

Greets
Schepp himself

**Two Daemons in a Bar**

So, instead of taking point gobbling things like Dire Avengers, you should take two maxed out squads of Guardians with Starcannon. Turn in the jetbikes for Guardians too. Your guardians are already faster than the GKs with their fleet rule. You should actually just force him into a time-consuming combat with your big squads, bury him under weight of numbers if lucky, and this is where a Farseer with Doom would go a heck of a long way, and if not, wait for the Avatar and/or Wraithlord to come to the rescue. The Avatar will most likely gobble up 2-3 GKs a turn, and with only ten of them in a squad, that's quick killing. Get a squad of Banshees in a Wave Serpent, and go hunt annoying things like Purgation Squads. Ten Banshees with PW will turn that Purgation squad into a red blotch on the board in 1-2 rounds, unless you have a natural habit of rolling double 1's! Also, get rid of those f'in pathfinders! What do you want them for against this army?! Ranger Disruption may be nice, but these guys will kill less during an entire game than a squad of Grots does in a round fcol!

**tegeus-Cromis**

So, instead of taking point gobbling things like Dire Avengers, you should take two maxed out squads of Guardians with Starcannon.

You joke. 20-man Guardian squads? Why would you not take two squads of 10 and get an extra heavy weapon instead?

Get a squad of Banshees in a Wave Serpent, and go hunt annoying things like Purgation Squads. Ten Banshees with PW will turn that Purgation squad into a red blotch on the board in 1-2 rounds, unless you have a natural habit of rolling double 1's!

Would be more efficient to just swap the FDs for Harlies and use those for this purpose.

Ranger Disruption may be nice, but these guys will kill less during an entire game than a squad of Grots does in a round fcol!

Ranger Disruption? You're such a kidder. You know this is the year 2008, right?

**Gitzbitah**

Focus your long range fire on things that don't benefit from the shrouding. It does not protect anything but Grey Knights and Grey Knight Terminators. The Dread, Inquisitor and Stormtroopers are all normal targets. So use your long range stuff on those targets until they are gone, then the rest should be too close for shrouding to impact you too badly.

**Two Daemons in a Bar**

I agree with the extra heavy weapon, but if they are there as cannon fodder and if he has the points he should always max them out. It's simple math, 20 guardians last longer than 10. Harlies are nice with rending, but they need to roll a six to ignore. Banshees just plain ignore armour. And now you give me a disturbing feeling that my local shop has sold me an old rulebook, because it keeps mentioning Ranger Disruption and how they are affected by different rules. I think i'm gonna sue him. Just for good measure...

**tegeus-Cromis**

I agree with the extra heavy weapon, but if they are there as cannon fodder and if he has the points he should always max them out. It's simple math, 20 guardians last longer than 10.

Whether or not they're there are cannon fodder, they ought to get in a few shots before meeting sticky ends. Given how affordable the entry-level heavies are, it's madness not to go for squads of 10.

And sure, 20 Guardians last longer than 10, but why should that mean you take them in units of 20?

Harlies are nice with rending, but they need to roll a six to ignore.

A deceptive way of looking at it. Odds of a Harlie rending on any given attack: 1 in 6. Odds of a Banshee hitting and wounding a Marine with any given attack: also 1 in 6. Hmm. . . .

Then consider how much more useful it is to be able to use them effectively in a Falcon instead of a Wave Serpent. (6 Banshees are just not that killy, even if you get the Exarch.) Until 5th ed comes, Harlies are just plain better.

Even without bringing Harlies into the picture, Banshees are still an inferior choice in this situation (and many others). Why not use Scorps instead? That way you can still use a Falcon effectively (because their killing power is concentrated in the Exarch, a full squad of 10 is not really needed), and after they've done the job, it will take a little more effort to remove them. They may even get the chance to charge a second unit, something the Banshees with their 4+ (and admittedly, the Harlies) are extremely unlikely to get.

And now you give me a disturbing feeling that my local shop has sold me an old rulebook, because it keeps mentioning Ranger Disruption and how they are affected by different rules.

You weren't kidding, then! That would be Codex: Craftworld Eldar. It's obsolete (for better or worse).

**Beriothien**

Hmmm

IC, I read you as saying S6 stuff (like a star cannon, or even a scattering laster) is considered anti-tank? I guess you hit and roll a 6 that gives a GLANCING hit on heavily armored stuff? Yes, you get more shots, and yes it is better anti-MEQ or anti-armor value of 10 since there are more shots.

I don't understand your (IC) recommendation to not take Bright Lances on vehicles or in Guardian units.

**tegeus-Cromis**

Who is "IC"?

**Beriothien**

You

should have been TC - but I like IC better.

**tegeus-Cromis**

Thanks for clearing that up.

Now clear this up for me: where on this thread do I say anything about AT or not taking one-shot weapons on Guardian squads? And of course you don't take the BL on Falcons, because you can't shoot it as well as the pulse laser while moving. This is obvious.

**Two Daemons in a Bar**

I would't use Scorps because they don't get the job done properly against Daemonhunters. The 3+ save and str 4 do come in handy, but even a purgation squad is a lean, mean and well oiled CC killing machine that can and quite inconsiderately will ignore 2/3ds of your hits. What the banshees do do is make every hit count. Thanks for clearing the Ranger Disruption thing up. What kind of havoc might i not wreak with it's terrifying powers of confusion...

**tegeus-Cromis**

The Scorps will ignore 2/3 of wounds right back. You'll lose a few, perhaps, but the Claw Exarch will carry the day.

**Savnock**

Two Daemons, please stop offering Eldar advice. Your advice is full of factual inaccuracies, and it's not going to help people.

t-C says this a bit heatedly above, but I will just say it without any insults: Offering advice about armies that you do not play (and whose codex you have not read recently) without stating that at the beginning of your post is both irresponsible and unfair to those who are looking for help. If you're going to offer advice on Eldar, you should really state that you do not play them. In every discussion.

I'm not trying to be holier-than-thou: I've been screwed by uninformed poster advice before (mainly in Fantasy, years ago). It sucks. Please find something else to post about, but not tactical advice. You seem like a cheerful person with something to say, so maybe the Discussions board would be a better place to post when you feel like commenting on something other than the armies that you play.

**Boyofdestiny205**

I didnt see this posted but blessed for grey knight vehicles makes the land raider count as having the ageis rule.
Ie it has LD 10 to try and cancel psychic powers used on it.

**tegeus-Cromis**

I am actually not familiar with the Blessed upgrade (DH are rather thin on the ground), but uh, what psychic powers do Eldar have to use on LRs anyway? Eldritch Storm? You must be joking.

**Gitzbitah**

I don't think blessed gives the Aegis to anything but Dreadnoughts. The landraider just gets the extra daemon penetration and causes them trouble when assaulting. Defilers hate it, and it might irritate an avatar trying to assault, but that would be about all the effect it had.