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I know the first thing I'm told when I post this list is "your crazy, drop this and drop that" but that's ok. I've had the same reaction from the player across the table on many occasions. The theme of the army is they lost the ability to produce the things needed to maintain plasma/lascannons after their planetary revolution/change to socialism, as the factories to produce such things were destroyed. Thus they use mainly projectile weaponry, and have limited numbers of plasma in the force. I'm probably gonna drop most of my GL's to pick up plasma for those squads that have GL's but i wanted to post the list first and then let you guys tear into it some.

The Kanteran IV PDF: 2000pts Total

Doctrines:
-Iron Discipline
-Drop Troops
-Close Order Drill
-Veterans
-Special Weapon Squads

HQ
-Junior Command Group: 51pts
w/ Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon, Iron Discipline

2x-Special Weapon Squad: 75pts
w/ Meltaguns (2), Demolition Charge

Elites
-Veteran Squad: 116pts
w/ Sergeant, Bolter, Meltaguns (3)

2x-Veteran Squad: 110pts
w/ Sergeant, Bolter, Grenade Launchers (3)

Troops
-Platoon A Command: 56pts
w/ Bolt Pistol, Iron Discipline, Plasma Gun

2x-Platoon Squad A: 83pts
w/ Grenade Launcher, Missile Launcher

-Platoon B Command: 56pts
w/ Bolt Pistol, Iron Discipline, Plasma Gun

2x-Platoon Squad B: 83pts
w/ Grenade Launcher, Missile Launcher

-Platoon C Command: 55pts
w/ Iron Discipline (Doctrine), Plasma Gun

3x-Platoon Squad C: 78pts
w/ Grenade Launcher, Heavy Bolter

Fast Attack
-Hellhound: 120pts
w/ Extra Armor

-Hellhound: 120pts
w/ Extra Armor

Heavy Support
-Leman Russ: 160pts
w/ Heavy Bolter x3, Extra Armor

-Leman Russ: 160pts
w/ Heavy Bolter x3, Extra Armor

-Leman Russ Demolisher: 170pts
w/ Heavy Bolter x3, Extra Armor

I'm not sure what the real question is. Are you wondering if IG can work without plasma, are you wondering if this list will be fun and not horribly frustrating while you wait to buy plasma guns, or do you actually think this could be an effective army?

Assuming you want a "no plasma" army theme, you need to quickly address what your army is going to lack: the ability to stop MEQs, 2+ saves, and light vehicles. Without lascannons, you need to address a lack of dealing with AV14. Every decision should be based on dealing with one or both of those.

First: heavy weapons. If you're not taking lascannons, then every heavy should be a missile launcher. Since you're choosing not to take the best anti-tank gun, you want as many MLs as possible. Risking hyperbole, I would take an ML in every squad, every command squad, and I would take two anti-tank squads of them. You need the punch against vehicles and MEQs.

Against big save critters, I'd take two squads of rough riders instead of the hounds. If nothing else, I'd take a single squad. You'll really want the power weapons at some point.

You're specials should be a good mix. The vets shoudl all have meltas, as again, you'll want the punch against vehciles and termies. line squads should have GLs or flamers, and command squads should be double GL.

I would also lower the squad size of your veterans. Why buy 10 when you only need 5?


For god sakes, take an HSO with banner!

well no i have the models so i am definitely gonna buy plasma for the ML squads at least, then finagle points around for some in the vets. my question is how to do this, and i'd like to see what yall have to say bout the list. and simply it sucks doesn't cut it. I've been playing it for some time, never have trouble with lots of armor, and never trouble against MC's. I'm not adding heavy weapon teams, i hate them, and no rough riders.

the vets are for more models to be on the board as they sometimes don't deep strike (against nids and such) and I didn't have points for putting a standard in the HQ but do want to. so tell me what would you drop the put it in. and if that means taking less vets, suggest a place t put more men in. I like the model count of 132 men 5 tanks

so future responses i want to have ideas to adapt what is here to be better. by thins i mean adding more plasma (and maybe lascannons) to the list, and what things should be dropped to achieve this. and no i will not drop the hellhounds...anything i have already that isn't a small man sized model will not be replaced. so changes to the men not vehicles thank you very much. why buy something and not use it?

also remember these guys are PDF, not a real IG army, so they aren't going to have all of the same tactics, and stuff as the real army would. Imagine them more as a counter insurgency force, rather than a army.

why on earth do you have 3 command squads and 3 platoons but only 8 squads. WHy not one platoon of 5 squads and another of 3 or 4 and 4. Use the space points to drop in another unit of vets. THey are more efficients per points invested than the officer squads.

Also, you need to revamp you leadership. Or your guys will run. I believe your general must be a senior officer at least

Give him a commissar so he is L10 and put him in the center of your army with a standard.

Why does your vet SGT have a rapid fire wpn but the vets have assault wpns? All or nothing with guard. I can never stress this enough.

i have 3 vet units of 10 if you had read already. the officer squads are so i have 4 leadership bubbles. on top of those 4 command groups i still have 30 vets.

commissar only applies to when he is making leadership tests for his own unit, not others (it specifically says that under the commissar entry). also i ate commissars, won't waste points on them, and why have a SO? that little bubble of his, for more points, won't do as well when i'm playing with more. just more leadership bubbles to make overlap and if one is gone I'm not losing a chunk of my battle line. the bolter is just 1 point that was left over at the end that i didn't want to put towards plasma at the time.

now that i want plasma i am putting in at least one per ML squad simple by dropping the BP off each officer, and power weapon on the HQ officer. that's 4. now for the HB squads i'm thinking leave them as is for simple body count/shield. the for the vets i want to russle up points to make the GL become plasma, and I'm leaving the meltas.

no HBMC? no stelek? i was counting on yo two for good ideas on how to finagle points for a HQ banner, and plasma all over the place

We can't tell you how to save points if there's nothing you won't drop.

Obviously there is 40 points wasted in each veteran squad, that's 120 pts. 41pts gets you an HSO with standard, the other 79 pts you can upgrade 4 MLs to lascannons (40 pts) upgrade 4 GLs to Plasmas (8 pts), downgrade the 3 GLs in Hb squads to flamers (save 6pts), and buy four flamers for a JO (24 pts), drop the bolters and power weapon (save 10pts), leaving 23pts. I would swap the plasma out of one JO squad, giving that one the four flamers. I'd put four plasmas in one JO squad, and leave the other naked for pure command presence.

One area to drop some points is to drop the Extra Armor on the three tanks, that would allow a Power weapon on a JO or some flamers in the command squads.

I hope that helps, but it's really hard to give advice when you eliminate nearly all options before we can provide anything.

see there's better advice than has been given so far. the advice you gave me right off the bat was drop good things for crap like rough riders. IG never NEED and I stress need, CC troops, so why would i take any. Also hellhounds rock, so why replace them.

i already was planning on dropping the bolt pistols and the power weapon on the HQ to get 8pts to upgrade GL's to plasma in the ML units. then I'd prolly drop a few vets to get some plasma in each of those units, but i dunno. I'd much rather just drop the demo charge off of each special weapon squad for the plasma in the vet squads. as far as lascannons go i hate the modeling so I'm not using them. I like my Ml's which go on guys with 25mm bases not 40-50mm ones.

so your advice is lower the vet count to get more plasma for line squads. alright, but see then I'm not buying flamers for the HB squads, or HQ...that makes no sense, as they should be sitting back or hiding.

revised list
The Kanteran IV PDF: 2000pts Total

Doctrines:
-Iron Discipline
-Drop Troops
-Close Order Drill
-Veterans
-Special Weapon Squads

HQ
-Junior Command Group: 45pts
w/ Iron Discipline

2x-Special Weapon Squad: 65pts
w/ Meltaguns (2)

Elites
-5 man Veteran Squad: 75pts
w/ Sergeant, Meltaguns (3)

2x-5 man Veteran Squad: 75pts
w/ Sergeant, Plasmaguns (3)

Troops
-Platoon A Command: 55pts
w/ Iron Discipline, Plasma Gun

3x-Platoon Squad A: 85pts
w/ Plasmagun, Missile Launcher

-Platoon B Command: 55pts
w/ Iron Discipline, Plasma Gun

2x-Platoon Squad B: 85pts
w/ Plasmagun, Missile Launcher

-Platoon C Command: 55pts
w/ Iron Discipline, Plasma Gun

3x-Platoon Squad C: 80pts
w/ Plasmagun, Heavy Bolter

Fast Attack
-Hellhound: 120pts
w/ Extra Armor

-Hellhound: 120pts
w/ Extra Armor

Heavy Support
-Leman Russ: 160pts
w/ Heavy Bolter x3, Extra Armor

-Leman Russ: 160pts
w/ Heavy Bolter x3, Extra Armor

-Leman Russ Demolisher: 170pts
w/ Heavy Bolter x3, Extra Armor

See, this is why people aren't giving more advice. You basically took my advice, grabbed what you wanted to hear, and ignored the rest.

you're basically asking for accounting help: how to juggle points to get what you want.

Myself, and many others, find Rough Rider to be great, Lascannons far better then MLs, and GLs not worth painting, let along playing.

This might not be the ideal forum for the advice you seek, I'm afraid.

FIrst of all the commissar's leadership also applies to the leadership rule of the officer if you read the FAQ.

Second of all your leadership bubble will suck if its only leadership 8 with no re roll. Most people would prefer ONE bubble at LD10 with a re-roll. BUt go ahead. You do realize each office with a 12" RADIUS covers 24" across. Or 3.14 Square feet. Two of those cover a 6.28 square foot area. That is more than enough you dont need a third. Most guard should be bunched together anyways to they can back each other up.

I didn't notice the '2x' on your vets squad. They look good.

I suppose extra armor (Hellhounds) is ok, personally I take rough terrain mod and track guards. They represent the mobility in my army and I try to keep them mobile.

i try not to move them too much, unless i can't really get LOS on anyone and such, but that doesn't happen too much, and even less due simply to number of deployments and the fact that fast attack deploys less.

so the commissar does cast leadership to other squads? well that changes things but also means if they fail then the officer is killed which is bad to me. if i took one i'd simply put him with the JO so i wouldn't be risking an expensive guy to some LD rolls. so your saying drop a command squad for a commissar then? because i always wanted to use one, just never had a way to justify it.

see the ideas i keep getting are lowering the model count. I want same or more models if anything, while keeping the same 5 vehicles. I mean if you said drop the vets for some more infantry with ML's or whatever then i'd be fine with that, but saying to drop them to buy more expensive stuff doesn't make sense to me. to me IG are all about more for less...but that's just me.

also i am trying to keep the fluff up some while helping make this list some more optimal. hence why no lascannons, and that's just for fluff and appearance. plasma i have already conceded on due to it's amazing abilities. anything else? I've already taken out all grenades, and put plasma in instead, and I'll think bout the commissar what do you all think bout having a commissar? and what should i drop for the banner in the HQ?

THe commissar will only execute the officer if the unit THE OFFICER is in fails. Not if another squad using his leadership is killed.

I would say definately drop the command squad for he comissar and an HSO. Now your LD 10. You already said you dont move them much so just keep them close to your officer.

HOWEVER, there are also those player that will center indirect fire/ordnance over you squad, a rather mean tactic that players use. So take that into consideration.

alright thanks for the help. I'll try and rework something. I'll prolly go for the commissar, JO and banner though over the HSO because the reroll will be better than the +1 LD