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I'm not 100 percent sure if I'm right but passengers in an open top vehicle can shoot out but can't be shot at right? I was thinking there might be a rule in the book that I'm missing that says they can, but I can't find it anywhere. The only flaw I can find is that open top vehicles tend to blow up more easily then others.

I believe the answer is no. They can shoot out but not be shot at. GW 'balance' this by having open topped vehicles blow up more easily as you said.

I'm also pretty sure theres a rule about a model being able to shoot fromthe top hatch of a Rhino and possibly a Chimera. Almost definate they could in older versions. I'm not sure where to find this rule anymore, but suspect it would be in the rule book as opposed to the codex.....

They never actually bothered to say in the rulebook that models in a transport don't follow the same rules for LOS and being shot as normal... but the Rulebook FAQ does point out that models being transported can not be shot at.

We've got to remember to try and use a shred of common sense here, admittedly without over analyzing the rules because trying to use logic on many GW rules is like trying to thread a needle while having a seizure. The old "well the rules don't say that I can't" argument doesn't work. Nowhere in the rulebook does it allude to passengers in a transport (open or closed topped) are a viable target. Thus they are not.

Dakkaladd wrote:We've got to remember to try and use a shred of common sense here, admittedly without over analyzing the rules because trying to use logic on many GW rules is like trying to thread a needle while having a seizure. The old "well the rules don't say that I can't" argument doesn't work. Nowhere in the rulebook does it allude to passengers in a transport (open or closed topped) are a viable target. Thus they are not.

Incorrect.

The core rules do not state that you remove models from the table when they embark on a vehicle, so therefore before the FAQ ruling came out by the RAW models that embarked on vehicles should have been placed on or inside the vehicle (as that is the definition of embarking).

If models are on an open-topped vehicle you would, following all the normal rules for firing, be allowed to target models sitting on the vehicle model.


But the FAQ ruling is out now and it is finally in black-and-white that embarked models are removed from the table.

yakface wrote:

The core rules do not state that you remove models from the table when they embark on a vehicle, so therefore before the FAQ ruling came out by the RAW models that embarked on vehicles should have been placed on or inside the vehicle (as that is the definition of embarking).

Funny, I don't remember saying that you do remove models when embarking on a transport. And you are also incorrect because nowhere in the rules does it say that embarked models must be placed on top of or into their transport. But let's follow your logic for a second and assume that before the FAQ someone were to force you to put your marines in a rhino. Oh you can't fit 10 marines in the rhino, looks like most of the squad will be walking. Oh and if you put them on top of it they can be shot. Pure idiocy.

another point, is why would you want to target the models anyway? I understand that a mob of orcs rushing towards you may mean you want to shoot them, but logiclly it would be more useful, at least in the short term to take the vehicle out anyway and make them walk for a turn or two. If they're so close that they are an immediate threat then your introuble whether you shoot them or not...

By target priority the vehicle is also you main target anyway - it's closer than the pasengers. As i said above, an experienced gamer would shoot the trukk or whatever, if they have no weapons left capable of this then either a) they've made a poor army sellection and/or made drastic mistakes during the game, which personally means your not the most tactial player and so deserve to loose. b) they're not an experianced gamer. Your opponents will usually be a similar level to you and so if you've made this sort of error then your opontents probably done something wrong themselves that will balance the game. If your at a tounrament and not experienced then logically you will likly be there for the fun of playing and to learn more, in which case you don't really mind loosing in the first place - learn from your mistake.

It has nothing to do really with gaming skill or tactics. It has to do with simple common sense. I'll admit the original rule was sadly vague on the point of where the actual embarking troops went. I'll have to assume that the writers at GW figured that people playing the game would have half a brain, clearly their mistake. However this thread has gotten pointless since the book has been since FAQ'd and now serves only to illustrate why what a terrible and absurd idea the whole RAW arguement is.

Dakkaladd wrote:And you are also incorrect because nowhere in the rules does it say that embarked models must be placed on top of or into their transport.

Where else would embarked models be other than on or in the transport?

But let's follow your logic for a second and assume that before the FAQ someone were to force you to put your marines in a rhino. Oh you can't fit 10 marines in the rhino, looks like most of the squad will be walking. Oh and if you put them on top of it they can be shot. Pure idiocy.

Yes, GW write some dodgy rules. Are you only just noticing that?

Ahh memories, this thread brings back a long lost post on the GW forum that is now also long since lost.

In it a IG player claimed most ork vehicles were simple to take out with even the most basic weapons as you simply targeted the driver and gunner, gave them their 5+ cover save and with just a few simple shots the vehicles may be intact but without crew.

Needless to say he got his posterior handed to him on a silver platter

Anyhow as all vehicles in the game follow the same rules and there is no rule that demands an open topped transport vehicle has to place models on the vehicle and a hard top one moves them off I would simply have ended the argument by stating that if I had to place my models on my trukk then a SM unit would heave to be physically placed inside the rhino to be "aboard" it.

Anyhow, in short, no you may not target a unit riding in a transport vehicle open topped or not, you will have to target the vehicle and force an emergency disembarkment for the unit inside to become viable.

insaniak wrote:
Where else would embarked models be other than on or in the transport?

I don't know, maybe we could use our...Imagination to play the game taking place in the 41st millenium and assume that they get inside the vehicle without physically placing them on or in. Unless you actually put your models into or on top of transports prior to the FAQ then I don't think it's really an issue you can argue.

insaniak wrote:Yes, GW write some dodgy rules. Are you only just noticing that?

Quite the contrary.

Dakkaladd wrote:I don't know, maybe we could use our...Imagination to play the game taking place in the 41st millenium and assume that they get inside the vehicle without physically placing them on or in.

So, without the FAQ, why would you not be able to shoot at them if they were on an open topped vehicle?

Whether the models are actually there, or you're just imagining they're there, surely makes no difference to the rules for shooting.

Unless you actually put your models into or on top of transports prior to the FAQ then I don't think it's really an issue you can argue.

I have always put embarked models onto my trukks and raiders. Still do, in fact.

As I've always gone by, you cant shoot models inside vehicles. They duck down as they are being shot at and/or the shot hits the vehicle. Besides, in the rulebook, it doesnt say you may target passengers, so I hate to say it, but you cant kill them until they exit the vehicle, or are destroyed in it by it exploding.

megamarines wrote:Besides, in the rulebook, it doesnt say you may target passengers,

It doesn't say you may target Marine Scouts, either. Does that mean you can't?

You follow the normal shooting rules for all models, unless a specific rule says otherwise.

Up until the FAQ came along, there was no specific rule that caused passengers in a transport to be treated differently to normal for shooting purposes.

The FAQ adds in the rule that passengers are not physically on the table... which prevents them from being shot, as it's impossible to draw a LOS to models not on the table.


Well, unless they're sitting just off the board, or on another table nearby with nothing in between...

insaniak wrote:

megamarines wrote:Besides, in the rulebook, it doesnt say you may target passengers,

It doesn't say you may target Marine Scouts, either. Does that mean you can't?

You follow the normal shooting rules for all models, unless a specific rule says otherwise.

Up until the FAQ came along, there was no specific rule that caused passengers in a transport to be treated differently to normal for shooting purposes.

The FAQ adds in the rule that passengers are not physically on the table... which prevents them from being shot, as it's impossible to draw a LOS to models not on the table.


Well, unless they're sitting just off the board, or on another table nearby with nothing in between...

Heh, thanks for the quick save, could've had my ass handed to me. So yes, technically my post is correct, and it isn't. Great

Sorry for the thread necromancy, but has this changed in 5th edition?

I was wanting to use destructor on a wagon with orks on it. I looked at page 29 wherein the template weapons are described. It mentions "any models covered by the template are hit" or something very similar.

I took this to mean that the orks as well as the vehicle would be hit (after verifying the definition of models on the first or second page of the rules). But my opponent claimed there was no rule stating he had to place his models on the transport. I had to admit I couldn't find anything either.

So has anything changed with regards to targeting models in an open topped transport with a template weapon?

i'm not sure why this hasn't been mentioned.

hitting passengers inside a vehicle with something like a flamer is from a long time ago.. 2nd edition?? I don't remember.

the rules do not currently allow you to shoot at passengers inside of transports. that would defeat the purpose of taking them I think.

where I think you might be confused, is the way rhinos work. IIRC their description of fire points says that if you use the top hatch, but your squad is not in power armor, the rhino counts as open topped to reflect the damage of bullets bouncing around inside the vehicle.

they tried to fix this I guess with the landspeeders vs things like vypers. landspeeders are not open topped (power armor) where as vypers and other light vehicles are open topped

NaZ

Dal'yth Dude wrote:But my opponent claimed there was no rule stating he had to place his models on the transport. I had to admit I couldn't find anything either.

So has anything changed with regards to targeting models in an open topped transport with a template weapon?

I am interested in this as well. Let me be clear: I believe that models in transports should not be able to be hit by weapons. However, I do not think the rules support my belief - please, can someone give me a rule to support my belief?

Models embark onto a transport. Therefore, the rules have told you to embark them on the model. There is not a rule that says remove them from the table and place them somewhere else. So, the models should be on the transport.

insaniak wrote:They never actually bothered to say in the rulebook that models in a transport don't follow the same rules for LOS and being shot as normal... but the Rulebook FAQ does point out that models being transported can not be shot at.

FAQ is out!? Finally!

Please note that I never claimed I could target transported models in a non-open top transport. Nor do I think shooting at the transported squad should normally be allowed. I'm asking specifically about the template weapons.

I don't see any reference to a main rulebook FAQ on the FAQ page (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?community=&catId=cat1290031&categoryId=1000018&pIndex=2&aId=3400019&start=3)

Yeah, It'd be nice to find a link to the FAQ being quoted since it's not listed on the GW site, GW UK is down, and there is no post throughout DakkaDakka expressly announcing a 5th ed RB FAQ is out.

I've looked long enough.


Nevermind...rolls eyes...I failed to see this was a resurrected post from wayback and the FAQ being talked about is for the 4th edition.

Dal'yth Dude wrote:I don't see any reference to a main rulebook FAQ on the FAQ page (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?community=&catId=cat1290031&categoryId=1000018&pIndex=2&aId=3400019&start=3)

Considering you're the one who dug up a six month old thread you should realize that at that time there was a main rulebook FAQ for fourth edition. Fifth edition had not been released when this thread was started.

Good God man... start a new thread.

Don't dig up a thread about an old edition....