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@Jihadin
To be fair high unemployment, economic and social inequality, and greed were large contributing factors to the dissidence that lead to our rebellion against the establishment (George III and friends). So there are similarities, but drawing a line between revolutionary protests which could be violent and frequently illegal, to squatters is a long stretch. For one revolutionary era protestors returned home afterward. They city is not cracking down on the protests, they are cracking down on the encampments. They are separate, the protestors could have packed up thier gak carried thier signs and squatted on the sidewalks and in the alleys, but they chose a public park. I'm sure if they "camped" on the streets they'd be swept up twice as fast but hey, you cant win em all. They could also sleep in cardboard mansions like the much older "occupy any street" folks.

Jihadin wrote:I still want to get on the water cannon.

Who wouldn't? It is the world's best squirt gun (that still just shoots water).

I know Aht. I just dislike the protestors with intent knowing they have the local law enforcement and gov't by the short hair and willing to exploit it.

Well, I'd bet there are a fair number of the protestors just along for the chance at mayhem, but some who really would have rather kept it peaceful but I think they fethed it up from both sides.

Ahtman wrote:

Jihadin wrote:I'm sworn to defend the Constitution of the United States from both foreign and domestic

"...that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic..."

I'm not sure I would classify disenfranchised citizens as enemies of the Constitution just yet.

How the heck are they disenfranchised?

I wouldn't say disenfranchised...venting out their fustration, maybe a misguided few, or thinking they can make the U.S. a better place . I'm sure quite a lot of them are for them to say "I was there when it all started" status. Before I squeeze the trigger on the water cannon I make sure there were enough warning's given to the protesters. After the release orders are giving I start targeting the ones who has a possibility of a weapon on them.....signs make good weapons.

Yeah, I mean, I'm just as mad about what's happening to the middle class as the next guy, but camping out in a park yelling about police is about 5 steps removed from anything to do with the problem.

Yeah, I don't get why they did the park thing either. The should have used some organization, standing right in front of Wall Street, 24/7, respectfully, lawfully, in shifts. You know, like a union strike in a factory.

I highly doubt that the one's that are 18-35 have fully exhaust their means to get a job or whatever. Its the job they want that is not there...you know...do little but get paid a whole crap load of money? I'm going to say the high end peeps that are paid in the corperation started from the ground up to get where they are. I do resent bad decisions making and axing them.

CptJake wrote:How the heck are they disenfranchised?

Because they aren't allowed to vote or voice dissent or write their senators and peaceably assemble...

Wait a second.

Because they aren't allowed to vote or voice dissent or write their senators and peaceably assemble...

WATER CANNON TIME!!!

Jihadin wrote:I wouldn't say disenfranchised...venting out their fustration, maybe a misguided few, or thinking they can make the U.S. a better place . I'm sure quite a lot of them are for them to say "I was there when it all started" status. Before I squeeze the trigger on the water cannon I make sure there were enough warning's given to the protesters. After the release orders are giving I start targeting the ones who has a possibility of a weapon on them.....signs make good weapons.

The biggest success in which I participated in this area though was using about $400 bucks worth of hot dogs and kool aid to defuse a demonstration before it could start. Of course out of sight of the demonstration was a company of hard core steely eyed guys in darth vader looking riot gear, and another a 6 minute UH60 flight away (birds already spun up at the PZ).

hot dogs and kool aid

Who can argue over free food and kool aid? Even I would pause to holding down the trigger to the water cannon as someone pass up a free hot dog with the works loaded on it.

..now I want chili dogs with mustard and onions, thanks.

Monster Rain wrote:

CptJake wrote:How the heck are they disenfranchised?

Because they aren't allowed to vote or voice dissent or write their senators and peaceably assemble...

Wait a second.

You know disenfranchised doesn't just have to do with voting right? It also has to do with feeling disconnected from power or to be marginalized. Considering the number of times people on this very board have talked about not voting becuase they think it is a waste and that citizens don't have much control over the process of governing I don't think it is a stretch to imagine others would feel that way as well. If you have been shown that writing a Senator has zero effect, why would you bother? They are disenfranchised becuase they feel that they are being pushed aside to cater to the 1% (as they put it) and corporations. There standard of living is stagnant, or going in reverse and the government seems to not care.

Ahtman wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

CptJake wrote:How the heck are they disenfranchised?

Because they aren't allowed to vote or voice dissent or write their senators and peaceably assemble...

Wait a second.

You know disenfranchised doesn't just have to do with voting right? It also has to do with feeling disconnected from power or to be marginalized. Considering the number of times people on this very board have talked about not voting becuase they think it is a waste and that citizens don't have much control over the process of governing I don't think it is a stretch to imagine others would feel that way as well. If you have been shown that writing a Senator has zero effect, why would you bother? They are disenfranchised becuase they feel that they are being pushed aside to cater to the 1% (as they put it) and corporations. There standard of living is stagnant, or going in reverse and the government seems to not care.

Why SHOULD the Gov't give a rat's patootie about their standard of living? Where does the Constitution mention a guaranteed standard of living? Even the Declaration says you have a right to Pursue Happiness, and I'm pretty sure the Founders intended that to mean get off your ass and make something of yourself vice whine that 'It Isn't Fair Someone Else Has More Than Me'.

Ahtman wrote:You know disenfranchised doesn't just have to do with voting right?

It actually has a lot to do with voting, though.

Considering we live in a representative republic, the fact that we have the ability to do all of these things that I mentioned kind of means that we haven't been disenfranchised. I still think that the system works, and that you need to work within the system to effect change.

If the system is truly as broken as OWS says it is, it makes the protests even more pointless.

CptJake wrote:

Why SHOULD the Gov't give a rat's patootie about their standard of living?

Because they are supposed to be working for us, Everything else you said is biased rhetoric dood.

Monster Rain wrote:

Ahtman wrote:You know disenfranchised doesn't just have to do with voting right?

It actually has a lot to do with voting, though.

Ahtman wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:If the system is truly as broken as OWS says it is, it makes the protests even more pointless.

And this is just a flat out False Choice fallacy.

No it isn't.

Ahtman wrote:he options aren't solely between a government that is extremely receptive to letter writing and a government that ignores protests all together. It could be as such that one can feel that their normal means of addressing their government are having litte effect while believing that mass protest can make an impact.

I shouldn't have assumed that people would apply more to the context of this conversation, such as OWS rhetoric and the news from the last month or so, than the last 4 posts. My bad.

Monster Rain wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:If the system is truly as broken as OWS says it is, it makes the protests even more pointless.

And this is just a flat out False Choice fallacy.

No it isn't.

Of course it is. You present the issue as only having two options (either the government is corrupt to the point where protest doesn't matter or good enough that you don't need to protest) when there are in reality a multitude of degrees in between. Creating the illusion of only two options is pretty much textbook false dilemma.

Saying that protesting a government that one believes a puppet for soulless and evil corporations is pointless isn't a false dilemma.

Monster Rain wrote:Saying that protesting a government that one believes a puppet for soulless and evil corporations is pointless isn't a false dilemma.

Except that isn't how you phrased it or the point you were making (though you might have edited it by now). I can't tell if you are backpedaling and doing a "well what I was really trying to say was", or you made your point so badly it came off as something else, or you did exactly what I said you did.

It was whichever makes you happiest, boss.

Monster Rain wrote:If the system is truly as broken as OWS says it is, it makes the protests even more pointless.

REVOLUTION!

Eh, I wash my hands of the whole thing. Considering it isn't washing day (Saturday), that means something.

Yes, this is exhausting.

Platuan4th wrote:

Easy E wrote:Tell that to the predatory lenders who still haven't been punished.

You mean the ones that followed established rules and laws regarding lending?

Uncaring doesn't mean illegal.

That isn't what he said, nor who he meant.

CptJake wrote:
Why SHOULD the Gov't give a rat's patootie about their standard of living? Where does the Constitution mention a guaranteed standard of living?

Because places in which the general standard of living either stagnates or regresses tend to produce significant changes in government, at least where the government doesn't take extraordinary measures to secure its position.

CptJake wrote:
Even the Declaration says you have a right to Pursue Happiness, and I'm pretty sure the Founders intended that to mean get off your ass and make something of yourself vice whine that 'It Isn't Fair Someone Else Has More Than Me'.

I don't see why having the right to pursue happiness doesn't entail a right to petition the state to take measures in order to make that pursuit easier.

BuFFo wrote:

halonachos wrote:No, I'm part of the 53% that's actually going out and working instead of being a BMW because I made some bad choices. They don't represent me at all and anyone who says that they represent them or says that they are Scott Olsen are just d-riding this whole protest because they want to feel like they're part of something.

http://pumabydesign001.wordpress.com/2011/10/18/occupy-wall-street-obamas-ows-pals/

Hey look, I can do the same thing! One sided stories are the best!



Protests are a power of the people, regardless of who you are. If it weren't for protests against established laws, in America, the Consitution would still only be protecting land owning White Males.

I support protesting in all it's forms. People generally only protest when something is inherently wrong with the system, whether legal or morally. People just don't form mobs and protest something for no good reason.

Wow, something on the John Stewart show. Apparantly in Zucati Park the OWS broke into two segments of upper class protestors and lower class protestors. The upper class protestors do things against the will of the others, seems like such a nice organized protest.

The occupy crowd has NAZI and Communist party support, the last time these two groups agreed with each other Poland was split into two. As to people forming mobs and protesting for no good reason, I know a few women from Salem who would like to have a word for you. The term is "mass hysteria", kind of like what happened when "War of the Worlds" was broadcast over the radio. People do stupid gak for stupid reasons and before you're 25 your precognitive center hasn't fully developed and your emotions reign control until then. That's psychology so when I look at this crowd I don't see a group of well reasoned individuals, I see a mass of emotions that are misdirected. GE and the poor have one thing in common, they don't pay taxes or get enough tax deductions that they actually get paid. That means there is something wrong with the tax code, there's nothing wrong with the corporations because they're doing what they're supposed to do. We need to reform the hell out of the current tax code but we have people in this crowd that support Obama who hasn't done anything to change the tax system, in fact he was one of them who supported the bailouts. I want Herman Cain because he would set a tax limit on them that would not be reduced, 9% for their business investments, 9% for their income, and 9% of whatever they spend. The rich will still be paying more in taxes thanks to 9% of 1,000 being more than 9% of 10, if they make more and get taxed the same percentage they still pay more.

They have degrees in heavily populated areas, you chose a CS major and learned IT. That's awesome because so did 1,000,000 others and they're all competing for 100 jobs. Why did they choose Computer Science, was it because it was their passion or did they choose it because they wanted money? If you chose to do it for money then you screwed up and are just as greedy as the 1%, you're just more of an idiot than them.

This movement is a failure, they're setting up ghettos in public and even private areas. The Boston Tea Party was a crime and guess what happened afterwards, people were punished. The OWS crowd is setting up shanties in private areas, that would be like the Tea Party going to your lawn and living there. They aren't just protesting, they're living on this land. That means they throw their garbage there, defecate and urinate there, and do whatever else there.