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Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Whilst this power is in effect is referring to that casting of the power.

Welcome to the stacking side.

Obviously it does not. Whilst Terrify is "in effect" the target has -1 LD. Maledictions are "in effect" from the time the power lands until the start of the Psychic Phase of the caster. Remove the 'whilst" part and the stacking side would be correct. However any power with that wording cannot stack with itself.

Yes it can, any power with that wording can stack with itself because Whilst This Terrify that was just cast is "in effect"...

 PrinceRaven wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Whilst this power is in effect,= It is a conditional rule, is the unit under the effect of terrify?
Yes > It gets -1 LD
No > It does not get -1LD
Multiple modifiers never comes into play because the rule grants a single modifier regardless of the number of terrifies on the unit.
If you can find a psychic power that has the same conditional wording I will agree that it is non-stacking with itself.

Welcome to the non stacking side.

So your entire argument hinges on the interpretation that "the power" refers to Terrify in and of itself rather than the power manifested on the unit?
It seems we've reached the crux of it, if your interpretation of "the power" is the same as sirlynchmob's Terrify doesn't stack for you, if your interpretation is that "the power" is that single manifestation you have just resolved it does stack for you.
My interpretation is the second option, therefore Terrify stacks for me.
/thread over

Let me verify, the power is in effect only when the psyker manifests it? Then how long will the Ld modifier last on the target unit?

Maledictions are in effect until the start of the psyker's next psychic phase, the -1 leadership penalty for each manifestation of Terrify will last until then.

Okay, I see. Let's just be content to say that our interpretations then differ.

What sort of wording would satisfy you if the intent was to not allow Maledictions to stack?

The same wording they put in the Blessing rules but not in the Malediction rules.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Whilst this power is in effect is referring to that casting of the power.

Welcome to the stacking side.

Obviously it does not. Whilst Terrify is "in effect" the target has -1 LD. Maledictions are "in effect" from the time the power lands until the start of the Psychic Phase of the caster. Remove the 'whilst" part and the stacking side would be correct. However any power with that wording cannot stack with itself.

Yes it can, any power with that wording can stack with itself because Whilst This Terrify that was just cast is "in effect"...

The power is in effect for as long as it is on the unit. Six Terrify casts still equals one Terrify in effect. Hence -1 LD.

Except for the part where it explicitly states that effects are cumulative.

Don't argue that point, argue the actual grammatical intentions of the statement. I've argued my points why it works.

Please argue why it does not.

Fragile wrote:
The power is in effect for as long as it is on the unit. Six Terrify casts still equals one Terrify in effect. Hence -1 LD.

* According to a particular interpretation of a certain phrase in the wording of Terrify that a minority of people believe.

last edition had the same wording for blessings, and maledictions. Obviously they did not intend for them to stack as they modified the wording for people (hammerhand fanboy10001) would be able to understand that saying different blessing stack, does not mean the same blessing stacks.

Obviously from this thread the same people who thought saying different things stacks means the same things stack feel the same way.

its unfortunate GW doesnt do a good job editing, its obvious that they just did a copy past job of the last editions malediction section as most people who were "confused" (may also read as TFG rules lawyers) only tried to exploit the wording for blessings.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

Fragile wrote:
The power is in effect for as long as it is on the unit. Six Terrify casts still equals one Terrify in effect. Hence -1 LD.

* According to a particular interpretation of a certain phrase in the wording of Terrify that a minority of people believe.

Good to know you know what the majority thinks.

I can prove exactly when Terrify is in effect. And while that power is in effect, it gives a modifier. You have shown nothing to say otherwise. Your modifier rule does not come into play because each subsequent casting of Terrify does not change the fact that Terrify is already "in effect"

I have not seen many people share your viewpoint on what "the effect" means in these powers, and all of them online, everyone else whose opinion I've heard on the subject thinks it refers to the power you just manifested. So, in my experience, you are in the minority.

Without your... interesting interpretration of said rule you may manifest multiple inatances of Terrify on the same unit, thus having multiple powers in effect, leading to you having multiple modifiers.

Hollismason wrote:
Except for the part where it explicitly states that effects are cumulative.

Don't argue that point, argue the actual grammatical intentions of the statement. I've argued my points why it works.

Please argue why it does not.

Which has already been debunked... try again.

No you haven't. You most certainly can target units with multiple instances of the spells, Blessing states clearly that particular or specific spells only apply once.

I cast X twice , it only get's the benefit once if it is a Blessing.

There's no such restriction on Maledictions for that as it's doesn't say particular and isn't clear enough to tell us what different Maledictions, if a Maledictions come from two different sources they are different Maledictions.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I have not seen many people share your viewpoint on what "the effect" means in these powers, and all of them online, everyone else whose opinion I've heard on the subject thinks it refers to the power you just manifested. So, in my experience, you are in the minority.

Without your... interesting interpretration of said rule you may manifest multiple inatances of Terrify on the same unit, thus having multiple powers in effect, leading to you having multiple modifiers.

With your interpretation of terrify and different, when you use the same logic for stealth,

If you have a IC with stealth
a unit with stealth
and stealth ruins

As they are different by your use of the word, all 3 should stack right? because different special rules are cumulative. but in context with the rest of the rules, regardless of how many times you have a rule, it is only applied once. The power only means 'terrify' no matter how many times you've put it on a unit. You don't have multiple powers, nor multiple modifiers, you have a single rule.

And a while ago the minority used to think the world was round. popularity of an opinion doesn't mean it's right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:
No you haven't. You most certainly can target units with multiple instances of the spells, Blessing states clearly that particular or specific spells only apply once.

I cast X twice , it only get's the benefit once if it is a Blessing.

There's no such restriction on Maledictions for that as it's doesn't say particular and isn't clear enough to tell us what different Maledictions, if a Maledictions come from two different sources they are different Maledictions.

You do realize we are not playing magic the gathering right?

You've completely misread my argument, I have never claimed that multiple uses of Terrify are different powers, I claimed that through following the rules for manifesting psychic powers you can have 2 of them in effect on the same unit, leading to multiple leadership modifiers.

Yes, but they didn't have the same sort of access to education and information 8000 years ago as we do today, I like to think most English speaking wargamers have a firm enough grasp on the English language that their opinion on the interpretation of what "the effect" refers to should have some weight.

You do realize we are not playing magic the gathering right?

When you are using Psychic powers, you are in a sense casting them. You expend Warp Charges in an attempt to "manifest" which to be fair, is no different than casting, just a word choice. Or are you arguing the two actions are completely different things, because they are not.

Either way. I see no real issue with them stacking. Due to an absence in the rulebook stating that they do not stack, the only reasonable conclusion that can be drawn from this exclusion is that they can. Reference Blessings in the rulebook if you will. They have made an effort to directly state that Blessings do not stack.

The likelihood of this being an oversight for Maledictions is astronomically low as this was one of the core reasons for a 7th edition in the first place from what I have gathered from all the forums and players I have met.

The best decision here is not to argue about it amongst people that, more likely than not, we will never actually face in battle and either play it how it is played in your area, or decide ahead of time with your opponent. All we are doing here is hypothesizing from our own interpretations of what the rules state vs what we think the rules mean.

Sorry, not taking sides here. Let the dice and fate decide in your own games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
You've completely misread my argument, I have never claimed that multiple uses of Terrify are different powers, I claimed that through following the rules for manifesting psychic powers you can have 2 of them in effect on the same unit, leading to multiple leadership modifiers.

Yes, but they didn't have the same sort of access to education and information 8000 years ago as we do today, I like to think most English speaking wargamers have a firm enough grasp on the English language that their opinion on the interpretation of what "the effect" refers to should have some weight.

You would be surprised how much native English speakers do not understand even the fundamentals of their own language.

Hollismason wrote:
No you haven't. You most certainly can target units with multiple instances of the spells, Blessing states clearly that particular or specific spells only apply once.

I cast X twice , it only get's the benefit once if it is a Blessing.

There's no such restriction on Maledictions for that as it's doesn't say particular and isn't clear enough to tell us what different Maledictions, if a Maledictions come from two different sources they are different Maledictions.

Different means not the same correct? If we know what same means we know what different means. Same means same named power or the restrictions on a unit casting the same power more than once or a Psyker generating the same power more than once mean nothing...

The rulebook only says the same Psyker cannot use the same power twice, not that the same power cannot be used more than once during the turn. So why wouldn't two powers, one from each of two Psykers, if hit, apply multiple times?

Same UNIT cannot cast the same power twice. So by same do they mean same instance or same name? Therefore by not the same do they mean not the same instance or not the same power?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Same UNIT cannot cast the same power twice. So by same do they mean same instance or same name? Therefore by not the same do they mean not the same instance or not the same power?

Then the question becomes where a Psyker is a unit or not, which he is. So this Psyker unit cannot cast the same power twice. But what is preventing another Psyker from casting the same power? The rulebook simply says select one Psyker, attempt to manifest power, resolve power. Select a new Psyker and repeat process until all of the Warp Charges have been used, or the same Psyker and attempt to manifest and resolve another, different power. This, to me reads that a Psyker can either use multiple spells but not the same one twice, or multiple Psykers can all use the same spell between them

 PrinceRaven wrote:
You've completely misread my argument, I have never claimed that multiple uses of Terrify are different powers, I claimed that through following the rules for manifesting psychic powers you can have 2 of them in effect on the same unit, leading to multiple leadership modifiers.

Yes, but they didn't have the same sort of access to education and information 8000 years ago as we do today, I like to think most English speaking wargamers have a firm enough grasp on the English language that their opinion on the interpretation of what "the effect" refers to should have some weight.

I understand what you're saying, I was pointing out that you can have 3 different sources of stealth, but you only get to use stealth once for your unit. following the rules as you read them with regard to stealth would lead to have 3 manifestations of stealth in effect on the same unit, leading to multiple stealth bonuses. Or 3 manifestations of a banner in effect on the same unit, leading to multiple WS bonuses.

contextually and RAW no matter how many of the same power, special rule, or wargear you have, they do not stack, unless told specifically that they do.

to see the failure of wargammers and english, look at the blast & multi level ruins threads. and how a circle & 'beneath' becomes an infinite cylinder. Most gamers seem to put more emphasis on the result they want, instead of the words used for the rules. This is why I point out these other 2 issues to show how they accept things don't stack because the math works out, yet for maledictions they'll change their mind and decide that they do.

You can't use stealth more than once because it specifically states that it doesn't stack in the "special abilities" and have their own rules. That's why Stealth doesn't stack.

Also, I'd like to point out that by your "logic" you cannot cast a Malediction more than once on a army. So even if it wasn't Terrify, you couldn't use Malediction powers from the Sanctic discipline more than once on a Daemonic Unit.

 Lobomalo wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Same UNIT cannot cast the same power twice. So by same do they mean same instance or same name? Therefore by not the same do they mean not the same instance or not the same power?

Then the question becomes where a Psyker is a unit or not, which he is. So this Psyker unit cannot cast the same power twice. But what is preventing another Psyker from casting the same power? The rulebook simply says select one Psyker, attempt to manifest power, resolve power. Select a new Psyker and repeat process until all of the Warp Charges have been used, or the same Psyker and attempt to manifest and resolve another, different power. This, to me reads that a Psyker can either use multiple spells but not the same one twice, or multiple Psykers can all use the same spell between them

Have you even read the rules in question because they do not say this. However this is a needless digression no one is saying that it is impossible to cast the same power twice in the same phase (you must have 2 different units with the same power to do this).

What we are saying is that casting the same Malediction on a unit more than once has no cumulative effect. This being because it lacks permission to do so and the wording of Maledictions says "Whilst this power is in effect...X" means that statement is true whether you have cast the Malediction once, twice or a thousand times and therefore we apply clause X (in the case of Terrify -1Ld plus some special rules and a morale check).

Did not want to get dragged into this debate, but the wording that states "While this power is in effect" is an individual effect for that one instance of Terrify, for each stack of Terrify, assuming that it can indeed stack, each instance of Terrify would have "While this power is in effect"

That wording by no means says that it cannot stack. Just wanted to point this out.

 Lobomalo wrote:
Did not want to get dragged into this debate, but the wording that states "While this power is in effect" is an individual effect for that one instance of Terrify, for each stack of Terrify, assuming that it can indeed stack, each instance of Terrify would have "While this power is in effect"

That wording by no means says that it cannot stack. Just wanted to point this out.

All Maledictions carry this wording not just Terrify.

If I have cast Terrify on a unit 3 times, is Terrify in effect? If so then you get -1 Ld etc. If the answer is no then the unit suffers no ill effects so which is it?

The way I am reading it.

If you cast Terrify 3 times from 3 different sources and they all succeed, then you get 3 instances of -1 to Leadership. I have found nothing within the rulebook that does not allow you to do this, but I will look again just to make sure.

Cool so if you have cast it 3 times on the unit when I come to do a morale check I need to check is Terrify in effect on the unit? Yes or No?

That is your issue as this is not a single instance event this is a status put on the unit that has to be checked when applicable through out the duration. That check will return a yes/no response which thus generates a single modifier.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Same UNIT cannot cast the same power twice. So by same do they mean same instance or same name? Therefore by not the same do they mean not the same instance or not the same power?

Then the question becomes where a Psyker is a unit or not, which he is. So this Psyker unit cannot cast the same power twice. But what is preventing another Psyker from casting the same power? The rulebook simply says select one Psyker, attempt to manifest power, resolve power. Select a new Psyker and repeat process until all of the Warp Charges have been used, or the same Psyker and attempt to manifest and resolve another, different power. This, to me reads that a Psyker can either use multiple spells but not the same one twice, or multiple Psykers can all use the same spell between them

Have you even read the rules in question because they do not say this. However this is a needless digression no one is saying that it is impossible to cast the same power twice in the same phase (you must have 2 different units with the same power to do this).

What we are saying is that casting the same Malediction on a unit more than once has no cumulative effect. This being because it lacks permission to do so and the wording of Maledictions says "Whilst this power is in effect...X" means that statement is true whether you have cast the Malediction once, twice or a thousand times and therefore we apply clause X (in the case of Terrify -1Ld plus some special rules and a morale check).

Just pointing this out

Note that bonuses and penalties from different maledictions are always cumulative, but cannot, unless otherwise stated, take characteristics above 10 or below 1 (or below 2, in the case of Leadership).

If you state the first, that you can in fact cast Terrify twice on a squad then they are cumulative. This isn't some weird Orwellian doublethought logic.


The argument people are having is this

Note that bonuses and penalties from different maledictions are always cumulative, but cannot, unless otherwise stated, take characteristics above 10 or below 1 (or below 2, in the case of Leadership).

Whether that means , different Maledictions or what definition do they mean by different. Regardless of what people think two things can be the same thing and be different.

It's not some illogical leap. If I have two identical pieces of paper they are different pieces of paper, they're still the same but they are also still different. The argument people have is that Blessings are specifically written in a very very specific way as to not stack ever which is why we're arguing about this.

If Maledictions had the same wording as Blessings, I wouldn't argue at all. It doesn't though.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Cool so if you have cast it 3 times on the unit when I come to do a morale check I need to check is Terrify in effect on the unit? Yes or No?

That is your issue as this is not a single instance event this is a status put on the unit that has to be checked when applicable through out the duration. That check will return a yes/no response which thus generates a single modifier.

I actually don't disagree with the Leadership check stuff because it's not a modifier, the -1 is a modifier, we know modifiers stack. However , a check is not a modifier it would not be cumulative.

So we know that Modifiers are cumulative, but checks are not. The one leadership check would satisfy the take 1 leadership check at the end of the phase as they all state that.

So if you had 3 Terrifies , you'd take a leadership check at -3 at the end of the phase and again at the end of the next psychic phase.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Cool so if you have cast it 3 times on the unit when I come to do a morale check I need to check is Terrify in effect on the unit? Yes or No?

That is your issue as this is not a single instance event this is a status put on the unit that has to be checked when applicable through out the duration. That check will return a yes/no response which thus generates a single modifier.

The way I read it. Multiple instances will stack, you would only need to do a Morale check once. It isn't the clearest rule in the book, but it isn't as difficult to interpret as this thread has made it to be.

“The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative. Unless otherwise stated, blessings cannot modify characteristics above 10 or below 1 (or below 2, in the case of Leadership).”

They explained it well here for blessings. However one blurb is left off on the maledictions. See here.
“Maledictions can affect units that are locked in close combat. Note that bonuses and penalties from different maledictions are always cumulative, but cannot, unless otherwise stated, take characteristics above 10 or below 1 (or below 2, in the case of Leadership”

See how the final parts are exactly alike I'd say that both maledictions and blessings must be different to stack.