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Also their whole front is that they're good - that's what they want you to think, and in their mind they are good. They don't look good or evil, they look like professional alien soldiers - exactly what they are. Not everything has to be painted black or have spikes to be evil.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

If GW fixed them from admiral ackbar cousins to some kind of vicious grey aliens in suits closer to what you have in xcom Id be all for keeping them.

Tau are an expansionist empire that assimilates other races into their collective and strips them of their rights and identities. Those who resist are eliminated through the use of superior technology.....How are tau and the xcom aliens not similar in your mind?

Xcom aliens even have an ethereal caste!

The only difference in fundamental similarities is that the xcom aliens use psychic powers, and the tau don't.

If you don't think Tau are grimdark enough, then you have either not read their codex, or are not reading enough between the lines.

I don't mind you saying that they should be removed or changed, that is fine, but your reasoning here seems a little off.

Xcom Aliens are actually threatening and not just elitist douchebags. Please don't compare the awesome Xcom to Tau

Note: I did not vote to remove Tau, I enjoy killing them too much

The xcom aliens are ridiculous. Their entire mission is a joke. "Let's cultivate these humans to a level where we can assimilate them, but also give them all of our technology and ways to beat us along the way!" Derp.

Tau are threatening because they actually act with realistic purpose. Xcom aliens appear threatening until you realise that they are actually borderline mentally challenged, and exist only to be killed to develop humanity.

Elitist? The both tau and xcom have the same elitist hierarchy, You cannot use it in a derogatory fashion, without also applying it to the other.

Also, Tau are 'douchebags' because?

Edit: I wish Tau had been better represented in the videogames they were present in. Making them appear to be squeaky clean good guys of the 40k universe didn't do their concept justice, also those god awful japanese accents (DoW I am looking at you) made them more farcical than the orks.

I would hardly say they gave their technology, more like were murdered and had it taken. Tau are much more elitist. They preach "greater good" even though they basically murder and assimilate people. Xcom Aliens never say anything about the greater good and are all about invading the Earth.

 Sidstyler wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:
but again their visual aesthetic dont follow.

Neither do Eldar. Not in the least. Yet they're almost universally accepted (the rules not so much) whereas Tau are almost universally reviled.

Eldar dont fit as well as ponytail elves but wraith constructs and some of the infantry make up for it a bit. With Tau you get impression of menacing neither from vehicles/ suits nor their physique. Also eldar art is on average darker I think.

But yes eldar barely fit and their fluff is just elves in space. Another reason why I dont care about Tau being removed, they'd have to go together with eldar.

Sidstyler wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:
They wouldnt stand out on good guys flag ship in star wars.

They wouldn't stand out among the bad guys, either. If anything they'd probably fit in more.

I disagree but if that was so, it would only be because bad guys in star wars look like wimps as well heh.

Tyranids. None of their builds are fun to play against at all,

Its even worse now that all of their new stuff and FW made them good.

Well, Tau are technically one of the "Good" factions in the same sense that Imperials, Eldar and Necrons are:

They are a group of people, largely messed up in overall terms, containing some decent guys.

Other factions can't really say that. Tyranids eat everyone. Chaos are madness and horror incarnate and the servants thereof. Orks live entirely in the moment and are effectively amoral. Dark Eldar torture to live.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Also their whole front is that they're good - that's what they want you to think, and in their mind they are good. They don't look good or evil, they look like professional alien soldiers - exactly what they are. Not everything has to be painted black or have spikes to be evil.

Too much subtlety, my head hurts. Yes they dont need to be black but looking at least like something serious would help. Also it's 40k it's not Dune or high literature or sth, sometimes in your face is better ie in ridiculous paragon of grimdark there is only war games. It's like telling Lovecraft to cut on adjectives.

Also truth be told chaos/ mutated/ something Tau codex like DE for eldar is something Id love to see.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Also their whole front is that they're good - that's what they want you to think, and in their mind they are good. They don't look good or evil, they look like professional alien soldiers - exactly what they are. Not everything has to be painted black or have spikes to be evil.

Too much subtlety, my head hurts. Yes they dont need to be black but looking at least like something serious would help. Also it's 40k it's not Dune or high literature or sth, sometimes in your face is better ie in ridiculous paragon of grimdark there is only war games. It's like telling Lovecraft to cut on adjectives.

Also truth be told chaos/ mutated/ something Tau codex like DE for eldar is something Id love to see.

So you want 40k to be even more flat and one dimensional? Okay, that's your opinion. I'm all for a bit more complexity in the fluff, and the subtle nuances of the Tau Empire is one of the better bits of the background in my opinion, next to some of the Lovecraftian Necron stuff (IA12).

And they do look serious. What isn't serious about them? The Crisis suits maybe but they're what, 10-12 years old now?

 ImAGeek wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Also their whole front is that they're good - that's what they want you to think, and in their mind they are good. They don't look good or evil, they look like professional alien soldiers - exactly what they are. Not everything has to be painted black or have spikes to be evil.

Too much subtlety, my head hurts. Yes they dont need to be black but looking at least like something serious would help. Also it's 40k it's not Dune or high literature or sth, sometimes in your face is better ie in ridiculous paragon of grimdark there is only war games. It's like telling Lovecraft to cut on adjectives.

Also truth be told chaos/ mutated/ something Tau codex like DE for eldar is something Id love to see.

So you want 40k to be even more flat and one dimensional? Okay, that's your opinion. I'm all for a bit more complexity in the fluff, and the subtle nuances of the Tau Empire is one of the better bits of the background in my opinion, next to some of the Lovecraftian Necron stuff (IA12).

And they do look serious. What isn't serious about them? The Crisis suits maybe but they're what, 10-12 years old now?

Stories can be complex but as far as grimdark goes yes I prefer more in your face especialy in visual department. And no it doesnt mean skulls or spikes it means insanity, hopelessness, suffering, desolation, ruin, misery and painful death that is only the beginning of your troubles etc. Heh. Dark and grim to the point of being its own parody (because grimdark everything and grimdark to 11 is a great joke as well imo) but cool enough that you can enjoy it on face value the same time.

As for Tau, their faces dont look serious, like a race I would treat seriously as threat or sth. I dont know how to explan that to you. They have faces of space Ghandis and while there was nothing wrong with the man, he wouldnt exactly thrive in 40k universe. I can explain to myself that it's smoke and mirrors and insidiously grimdark but Id prefer just to see that just like on almost all other things in the setting. It doesnt mean they have to look like monsters or even as menacing as xcom greys but just loose that characterless sheepish look.

Isn't that a bit racist? "I don't like the look of you so you don't belong here"

 Blacksails wrote:
You saying its irrelevant doesn't mean it is irrelevant. Being a chamber militant is in fact relevant and can be valid justification for being in an Inq book.

You saying “being a chamber militant is in fact relevant and can be valid justification for being in an Inq book.” does not make being a chamber militant relevant and a valid justification either. If you are unwilling to address my argument, the discussion is going to be very stale.

 Blacksails wrote:
The Sisters are a Chamber Militant of the Inquisition. As in, they exist partially within the Inquisition's organization and structure.

That is false. They were created outside of the Inquisition, and are merely often requisitioned by Inquisitors. The Inquisition do not provide them ressources, there are no Inquisitors affected to the Orders, there is really no actual link whatsoever.

 Blacksails wrote:
The Guard, contrary to that, do not exist within either organization's structure, and nor do the Sisters fall under the same chain of command that has direct authority over the Guard.

So, let us sum up:
- The Guard has a different chain of command than the Sisters
- The Inquisition barely have a chain of command. Mostly they have conflicts were the most influential Inquisitors win.
- The Inquisition can requisition both the Guard and the Sisters.
Oh yeah! Real difference! Totally the Sisters belong to the Inquisition and not the Guard.

 Blacksails wrote:
All I'm saying is that in the spirit of this thread and merging/cleaning up a few codices, Sisters don't make an unreasonable part of a better Inquisition book.

Only if you do not look at what Sisters are about. Since their inception to the latest digidex, they always have been about the Ecclesiarchy, and religion. They were loosely tied to the Inquisition, and in name only, during GW's Inquisition craze. But they were never linked in theme or spirit or even anything beside “get requisitioned often”. Just in name. So no, repeating GW's previous mistake, that has been recognized as a mistake and completely forsaken, is not a good idea. If you want to make a codex “forces of the Imperium other than Marines and IG”, you can also add Mechanicum to the mix, though. But really, just fold the marines and be done with it.

SGTPozy wrote:
Isn't that a bit racist? "I don't like the look of you so you don't belong here"

It's 40k, everyone's racist

SGTPozy wrote:
Isn't that a bit racist? "I don't like the look of you so you don't belong here"

That's basically what his entire argument boils down to. They don't look "mean" or "tough" or "serious" or "evil" to him. Therefore they suck and "don't fit" into the grimdark 40K setting. What utter nonsense.

Aliens never say anything about the greater good and are all about invading the Earth.

I guess you have either not finished xcom, or didn't listen to the dialogue. xcom aliens are not simply invading earth.

If they were, why do they not attack xcom, but instead land 1 ship at a time, slowly incrementally increasing the threat level of their squads? The 'invasion' of earth is just a game played by their ethereal cast, in an attempt to mould humanity into the best possible target for assimilation.

They preach "greater good" even though they basically murder and assimilate people.

How does this not fit the rest of 40k?

Criticise them all you like for their aesthetics, however their fluff is not as noblebright as some people make it out to be.

With Tau you get impression of menacing neither from vehicles/ suits nor their physique.

Their physique sure, but 20 feet tall flying battlesuits that shoot balls of energy and homing missiles are not menacing?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

You saying “being a chamber militant is in fact relevant and can be valid justification for being in an Inq book.” does not make being a chamber militant relevant and a valid justification either. If you are unwilling to address my argument, the discussion is going to be very stale.

I have addressed your argument. I think its completely relevant and a fine justification. You don't. You're not more right by telling me its irrelevant. The fact is that are a chamber militant of the Inquisition, and I fail to see how that is in any irrelevant.

Stale indeed.

That is false. They were created outside of the Inquisition, and are merely often requisitioned by Inquisitors. The Inquisition do not provide them ressources, there are no Inquisitors affected to the Orders, there is really no actual link whatsoever.

I never said they were created for the inquisition, nor by the inquisition. I said they partially fall under the rather loose structure of the Inquisition as an expert resource for a particular Ordo.

There is a link; they are a chamber militant for the Ordo Hereticus. You can keep claiming that's not a link or not valid, but its there, and for me makes for a perfectly reasonable justification to be a part of an Inquisition book for 40k.

So, let us sum up:
- The Guard has a different chain of command than the Sisters
- The Inquisition barely have a chain of command. Mostly they have conflicts were the most influential Inquisitors win.
- The Inquisition can requisition both the Guard and the Sisters.
Oh yeah! Real difference! Totally the Sisters belong to the Inquisition and not the Guard.

Inquisition can requisition anything, so might as well argue that everything falls under the Inquisition.

I'll point out I'm not saying Sisters belong to the Inquisition, but in terms of having a streamlined Codex collection, Sisters would make sense in one of two ways; their own book, or as a part of an Inqusition book to represent an Ordo Hereticus force.

Only if you do not look at what Sisters are about. Since their inception to the latest digidex, they always have been about the Ecclesiarchy, and religion. They were loosely tied to the Inquisition, and in name only, during GW's Inquisition craze. But they were never linked in theme or spirit or even anything beside “get requisitioned often”. Just in name. So no, repeating GW's previous mistake, that has been recognized as a mistake and completely forsaken, is not a good idea. If you want to make a codex “forces of the Imperium other than Marines and IG”, you can also add Mechanicum to the mix, though. But really, just fold the marines and be done with it.

Yeah, a codex of 'Forces of the Imperium' could work, so could having a dozen Imperium books for every faction with guns, which would be a lot.

Let me put it another way. Let's say GW released a proper Inquisition book with actual options and content. Let's say I'm building an Ordo Hereticus force. I'll probably have an Inquisitor, some of Henchmen...and Sisters! Wouldn't it make sense to just have all the Chambers Militant of the Inquisition in a book designed to represent the Inquisition? The same way DW and GK would be available in the same book?

As far as a reasonable merging of books, this strikes me as logical and fluffy. The alternative is to just have Sisters in their own book, which I'm also fine with, but I can't in good faith call for merging of all marines and not want some sort of unified Inquisition forces book.

I've said my piece. Feel free to respond, but I don't think its going to be particularly productive.

 Blacksails wrote:
The fact is that are a chamber militant of the Inquisition, and I fail to see how that is in any irrelevant.

Would that be because you do not go beyond the level of just reading “chamber militant” and understand what this expression is supposed to mean?

 Blacksails wrote:
I said they partially fall under the rather loose structure of the Inquisition as an expert resource for a particular Ordo.

What does “fall under the structure” means here? Explain the difference between them and the Imperial Guard, for instance.
Let me help you, the structure of the Sororitas is there:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adepta_Sororitas#Structure_and_Hierarchy

 Blacksails wrote:
Inquisition can requisition anything, so might as well argue that everything falls under the Inquisition.

Yeah. Exactly my point. Why only include Sisters then? Either only organization that are very, very linked to the Inquisition and never operate outside of it (like Deathwatch), or all those that they can requisition, but why single out some army that does not work with the Inquisition especially and force-fit it in an Inquisition 'dex?

 Blacksails wrote:
Let's say GW released a proper Inquisition book with actual options and content. Let's say I'm building an Ordo Hereticus force. I'll probably have an Inquisitor, some of Henchmen...and Sisters!

Or Imperial Guards. Or requisitioned space marines.
quote=Blacksails 631334 7516341 5719842a2ca26f9922fe6de695a66636.jpg]The alternative is to just have Sisters in their own book, which I'm also fine with, but I can't in good faith call for merging of all marines and not want some sort of unified Inquisition forces book.

So much tau hate, uhh, makes my head hurt from how biased it is.
I'm fairly sure it must be the people that can't be bothered to learn how to beat tau that are populating this thread.

Oh, and the guard, sisters and inquisition are separate things that can help each other because they all fight for the Emprah.

For me personally, the desire to remove the Tau is as cliche and dull as playing Space Marines.

As Peregrine said earlier, if you think Tau aren't dark enough, you really don't know the Tau.
The Tau are what the Imperium very much wishes it could be. Despite it's constant efforts, the Imperium has yet to match Tau when it comes to controlling it's people. Tau are able to do this because the Ethereals are far more brutal, and willing to do horrible things... 'for the greater good'. (Do you feel the darkness creeping in yet?) They just cover it up a lot better to avoid all the dissent... Yet another thing the Tau keep a tight reign upon while Imperial leaders fume jealously at what the Tau Ethereals have accomplished.

See, the Imperium doesn't realize that the extreme efficiency of the Tau didn't come about without some very sinister things being done by the Ethereals to their own people. Things that Imperial leaders haven't the balls to do. This is why the Imperium will remain a mess, while wondering how the Tau run such a tight empire.

Having read the Codex, Dataslate, and Farsight Enclaves, I testify that the Tau have some very disturbing things going on behind the curtain. A level of disturbing that few other armies have been able to match. Almost DE levels of disturbing. Just not overtly.

Okay people go on about how great starship troopers is but has anyone actually tried reading it?

The power armor gets a few dozen pages in between Heinlein's weird theories about the military.

GeeDubs did rip it off but I honestly the power armor had almost no role in the book.

 Anfauglir wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Isn't that a bit racist? "I don't like the look of you so you don't belong here"

That's basically what his entire argument boils down to. They don't look "mean" or "tough" or "serious" or "evil" to him. Therefore they suck and "don't fit" into the grimdark 40K setting. What utter nonsense.

So if you incorporated ponies or lets say something closer from other space fantasy like ewoks into 40k, it wouldnt matter that they stand out as long as GW provided adequate fluff? Or you can just throw any crap into 40k? Whats your point, because my is that they look like crap, on one picture like blue teethless orks or beefed up monkeyish grey aliens, on another some hippie skinny japan in space something and dont fit, yes. On what basis they fit visualy btw, if thats big robots with guns then I propose you play with transformers toys from now on because apparently saying something doesnt fit because it looks too wimpy/ toyish/ nice/ characterless for balls to the walls universe like 40k is utter nonsense. Or it's the insidious backstory, lets just get marvel loki into 40k all in spandex, also Gargamel he was grimdark as F really. Please.

 jreilly89 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Isn't that a bit racist? "I don't like the look of you so you don't belong here"

It's 40k, everyone's racist

Not true. The proper term is specist, not racist. Racism is decidedly dead. No humans care about the color of each others skin when there are nasty aliens trying to kill/eat/torture them.

Maybe you should learn that this is nothing but an opinion, one we don't really care about?

Good, you hate the looks of Tau.
We don't, deal with it.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
So if you incorporated ponies or lets say something closer from other space fantasy like ewoks into 40k, it wouldnt matter that they stand out as long as GW provided adequate fluff?

I'm not the one trying to argue that the Tau look like ponies or ewoks, here, you are. So you can cut that out here and now.

Whats your point

That your personal opinion on the Tau's appropriateness for the 40K setting boils down to what you think their faces look like, and that this reasoning is utter nonsense. Was I not clear?

On what basis they fit visualy

No, on what basis don't they fit visually? You know, apart from that you think they look like ponies or ewoks? I've yet to hear a reason other than that, therefore I've yet to hear a valid reason.

if thats big robots with guns then I propose you play with transformers toys from now on because apparently saying something doesnt fit because it looks too wimpy/ toyish/ nice/ characterless for balls to the walls universe like 40k is utter nonsense. Or it's the insidious backstory, lets just get marvel loki into 40k all in spandex, also Gargamel he was grimdark as F really. Please.

... more drivel that barely makes any sense.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Isn't that a bit racist? "I don't like the look of you so you don't belong here"

It's 40k, everyone's racist

Not true. The proper term is specist, not racist. Racism is decidedly dead. No humans care about the color of each others skin when there are nasty aliens trying to kill/eat/torture them.

Touche lmao. Still, if you ain't human, you're gak.

Kangodo wrote:
Maybe you should learn that this is nothing but an opinion, one we don't really care about?

Good, you hate the looks of Tau.
We don't, deal with it.

What?

First I was not posting to you

Second some people asked me questions about that opinion so I have to assume some care/ are interested. Who are the 'we' you talk about?

Third Ive been posting nothing but clarifications or answering to direct questions after I made my claims and would drop it already. The guy didnt just state he disagrees though which doesnt need answering, he doesnt get it but picks on words to call it utter nonsense and generaly acts like a typical baseless boor. Doesnt that warrant an answer?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anfauglir wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:
So if you incorporated ponies or lets say something closer from other space fantasy like ewoks into 40k, it wouldnt matter that they stand out as long as GW provided adequate fluff?

I'm not the one trying to argue that the Tau look like ponies or ewoks, here, you are. So you can cut that out here and now.

NEITHER AM I

Whats your point

That your personal opinion on the Tau's appropriateness for the 40K setting boils down to what you think their faces look like, and that this reasoning is utter nonsense. Was I not clear?

NO

On what basis they fit visualy

No, on what basis don't they fit visually? You know, apart from that you think they look like ponies or ewoks? I've yet to hear a reason other than that, therefore I've yet to hear a valid reason.

THERE IS NOTHING GRIMDARK ABOUT THEIR AESTHETICS

if thats big robots with guns then I propose you play with transformers toys from now on because apparently saying something doesnt fit because it looks too wimpy/ toyish/ nice/ characterless for balls to the walls universe like 40k is utter nonsense. Or it's the insidious backstory, lets just get marvel loki into 40k all in spandex, also Gargamel he was grimdark as F really. Please.

... more drivel that barely makes any sense.

YEAH

Sorry but your post is not worth the work and time to properly edit it on my ancient phone so I just answered closer to your style. And the 'face' issue, if you have humanoid race theres hardly anything really distinguishing it apart from the head shape and face attributes. Predator is just a naked guy with dredlocks but looks awesome imo thanks to the mask or his face without mask. Give him Tau face and derp everybody laughs when he shows it to Arnie. Other visual features of Tau are their anime esque armour and suits also weapons and that's basicaly it plus Japanesse motives, theyre ok now but not really 40kish either. Anyway theres not much more to talk other than their faces when evaluating their visuals as alien race because other than that theyre just tiny guys.

Anfauglir, all that Plumbum is doing is taking your argument and going to the extreme to prove it doesn't hold up. All he is saying is that GW just veered from the theme of the setting, and that is perfectly reasonable to say. While your argument is saying that Ponies WOULD be okay so long as they had a writer explain it away... which is true... but it doesn't mean it is a GOOD thing though.

I don't really see how GW "veered from the theme of the setting" when Eldar have a lot of the same design concepts as the Tau and have been in the game since the beginning. Or are people just forgetting that there's more to the setting than the Imperium and the Imperium with extra spikes?

Wish I could choose multiple ones: BA, DA, and SW should all have been rolled into one 'dex with SM.

MT and IK should be part of AM, and IQ should be with SoB and GK.

Would streamline the game a ton. Which is needed.

I think we should remove squats. Once again.

Let's remove Ultramarines. Everyone seems to hate them, so why not?

 jreilly89 wrote:
Let's remove Ultramarines. Everyone seems to hate them, so why not?

Bite your tongue! We're either the Detroit Lions or the Yankees of 40K. You love to hate us, so better keep us around.

Like its really our fault that you're all tired of us being better than you.