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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Because they are explicitly the rookies? And were even given WS3 BS3?
It is quite obvious that they have less training and experience than full on marines.

Then why aren't basic Sisters and Scions only BS3? I mean they represent rookies fresh out of training.

When did you start 40k? Because I started back in the end of 3e start of 4e when Scouts were WS and BS4, so to me bringing them back to that makes sense, where as lowering them did not. I mean its quite obvious from the fluff that its not just Rookies that are Scouts, some are, but a large portion of them are gonna be guys that are in the area between that and being made into a full Battle Brother. Like I have said numerous times in this thread, you aren't a Scout for a preset time, you are there until you are ready to be a full Brother or until they need enough bodies to replace those that have been lost.

Will not give you S4, though. Will help you keep the WS4 and I4 with power armor on.

I wasn't saying it was, its just it seemed you were discounting it helping with the Agility.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Then why aren't basic Sisters and Scions only BS3? I mean they represent rookies fresh out of training.

No, they do not. You may have missed it, but actually Sisters and Scions, do not exactly receive the same amount of attention from GW that Marines take for granted, and therefore neither have a unit to represent their rookies.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Then why aren't basic Sisters and Scions only BS3? I mean they represent rookies fresh out of training.

No, they do not. You may have missed it, but actually Sisters and Scions, do not exactly receive the same amount of attention from GW that Marines take for granted, and therefore neither have a unit to represent their rookies.

So then, they like the Scouts, show these Rookies as well as those that have been their for a while is what you are saying. Because GW has yet to show Rookie Scouts, and Regular Scouts in the same book.

But Scouts are rookies, except for Space Wolf Scouts, who are veterans.

Why do your rookie scouts have the same ballistic and weapon skill as the SW veterans?

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Because GW has yet to show Rookie Scouts, and Regular Scouts in the same book.

Scouts are rookie marines. You already have a tons of different marines unit. Sisters have very few units (6, with only 3 types of models, and one of those is so bad it almost does not count), marines have like millions of them. Scions only have one unit type.
So, that is why the rookie sisters and the rookie scions are not represented, and why Sisters and Scions have only models with BS4. Trust me, I would gladly exchange roles with marines on this.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
But Scouts are rookies, except for Space Wolf Scouts, who are veterans.

Why do your rookie scouts have the same ballistic and weapon skill as the SW veterans?

Scouts are the youngest and newest surgically and genetically enhanced fighters who have received extensive training that would have killed the majority of normal humans, but they are still surgically and genetically enhanced fighters who have received extensive training that would have killed the majority of normal humans.

The Chapters are not going to send their new guys out into a fight and risk wasting their genetic legacy unless they have figured out how to shoot a bolter and stab someone with their giant knife. They are not going "go and fight those people with limited training, gene-seed be damned!".

 Ashiraya wrote:
Ork Boyz are also WS4, whereas Battle Sisters are WS3.

Is it your opinion that your average Boy is a significantly more skillful melee combatant than a fully trained Battle Sister?

This is relevant.

Mostly because I believe WS/BS doesn't just take skill into account. An Ork will never have the finesse or skill of a Sororitas or a Tempestus, but it has the bulk and brutality to bring down even the most skilled fighters. The way I see it, WS is an amalgamation of gear, strenght and trained skill. Orks may be slow-witted brutes armed with crude axes and clubs, but have more than enough strenght to make up for those.

Here's the thing, though. What kind of firearms training would kill the majority of normal humans?

Firing field guns from the hip?

There is very little a Scout in Carapace can survive that a Sister in Power Armour cannot. Is some of the difference because the Sister has power armour and the Scout doesn't? Yes, probably - but that just means that they can train on the same level when equipped.

Sisters shoot guns while under fire during training. So do Scouts. Both will probably undergo sonic attacks, pain rays and whatever else the training officers can think of to disrupt the trainees' concentration and force them to learn to fire under the most adverse of conditions.

The training regimes are, ultimately, liable to be almost identical - except that the Scouts might do some of their drills in hard vacuum, which admittedly the Sisters are less likely to do.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Black Carapace has its benefits, but, like many things, likely something of a marginal one, something that makes a difference between foes of otherwise similar quality, tipping the edge, or that mitigates some sort of other drawback. Other units with similar armor don't have it and don't seem to be overly crippled by not having an equivalent.

The Luna Wolves fought the Auretian Technocracy during the Great Crusade, whose armies were Astartes in every way (with PA and boltguns and tanks and everything) except they were normal humans inside the suits instead of Space Marines.

They got utterly demolished, and it was made very clear that it's the soldier inside the suit that made the difference. So clearly all those 'marginal' organs are actually major stuff.

That's funny. I rememer Loken (or was it Tarik?) Going into details about how the Auretian Technocracy's military was anything but pushovers.

Besides, the Auretian Technocracy didn't get keeled over in one day. Rather, it took the brilliance of Horus' planning skills and the full might of two of the most brutal Astartes legions to bring an end to the Auretian Technocracy, and even after all that, victory only came after a long drawn out war of attrition.

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
An Ork will never have the finesse or skill of a Sororitas or a Tempestus

Finesse, no. Orks are pretty much antithesis to finesse. Skill? I would not be so sure. Remember that the only two beings that were able to threaten the Emperor were a Primarch and an Ork. I doubt that was just brute force that allowed the Ork to do so. If she had been a slow-witted brute, she would never have posed any kind of threat.

Its funny, because all I remember of the Technocrazy was that it was rolled over in the first chapter with only the Invisibles giving anyone any trouble whatsoever, just for the sake of a doubletake gag.

As for the melee skill of Orks, there was a wonderful short passage in White Dwarf a while ago (around the release of the edition of Codex: Orks where choppas reduced your save to 4+) from the PoV of an Ork assaulting a Marine-held position that detailed quite clearly the lighting-fast battle instinct of the Ork boy in question - just a regular choppa boy, mind you - identifying all the weak points in the Marines' armour and the importance of smashing his bolter out the way and not giving him a chance to draw his knife.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Here's the thing, though. What kind of firearms training would kill the majority of normal humans?

Firing field guns from the hip?

There is very little a Scout in Carapace can survive that a Sister in Power Armour cannot. Is some of the difference because the Sister has power armour and the Scout doesn't? Yes, probably - but that just means that they can train on the same level when equipped.

Sisters shoot guns while under fire during training. So do Scouts. Both will probably undergo sonic attacks, pain rays and whatever else the training officers can think of to disrupt the trainees' concentration and force them to learn to fire under the most adverse of conditions.

A Sister could survive shooting while under fire. A Space Marine Scout could reliably survive training that requires actually being shot with small-caliber weapons before they start.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Its funny, because all I remember of the Technocrazy was that it was rolled over in the first chapter with only the Invisibles giving anyone any trouble whatsoever, just for the sake of a doubletake gag.

You got it mixed up, Miko. The invisibles are from the 'Pretender Imperium' in the first novel. The Technocrazy first appear in the second novel, after Horus corruption. They are not the same.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Its funny, because all I remember of the Technocrazy was that it was rolled over in the first chapter with only the Invisibles giving anyone any trouble whatsoever, just for the sake of a doubletake gag.

I think you two are referring to two different groups. The other person's talking about False Gods. The Invisibles are from the very first book.

Damnit, scooped!

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Here's the thing, though. What kind of firearms training would kill the majority of normal humans?

Firing field guns from the hip?

There is very little a Scout in Carapace can survive that a Sister in Power Armour cannot. Is some of the difference because the Sister has power armour and the Scout doesn't? Yes, probably - but that just means that they can train on the same level when equipped.

Sisters shoot guns while under fire during training. So do Scouts. Both will probably undergo sonic attacks, pain rays and whatever else the training officers can think of to disrupt the trainees' concentration and force them to learn to fire under the most adverse of conditions.

A Sister could survive shooting while under fire. A Space Marine Scout could reliably survive training that requires actually being shot with small-caliber weapons before they start.

Sister could shoot with a small bullet in her too :p

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Here's the thing, though. What kind of firearms training would kill the majority of normal humans?

Firing field guns from the hip?

There is very little a Scout in Carapace can survive that a Sister in Power Armour cannot. Is some of the difference because the Sister has power armour and the Scout doesn't? Yes, probably - but that just means that they can train on the same level when equipped.

Sisters shoot guns while under fire during training. So do Scouts. Both will probably undergo sonic attacks, pain rays and whatever else the training officers can think of to disrupt the trainees' concentration and force them to learn to fire under the most adverse of conditions.

A Sister could survive shooting while under fire. A Space Marine Scout could reliably survive training that requires actually being shot with small-caliber weapons before they start.

Sister could shoot with a small bullet in her too :p

Not in a heart or lung... or the guts. Not if it hits a major artery or vein (unless she is very lucky and it is staunched early). Marines can easily survive such wounds. Sisters can't.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
A Space Marine Scout could reliably survive training that requires actually being shot with small-caliber weapons before they start.

Depend where. Shot him in the eye and he would not. Similarly, a Sister could survive depending on where you shoot her (might be a drawn nipple behind that link. Certainly is a buttload of stupidity. Seriously, we used to have that gak on TV for kids in France . ).

No, for selfish reasons -I run wolves and WS BS 4 scouts was one of their uniques advantages. Are claws untis now also going to be bumped up? I'm not in favour of that either, it makes the army less interesting.

 thegreatchimp wrote:
No, for selfish reasons -I run wolves and WS BS 4 scouts was one of their uniques advantages. Are claws untis now also going to be bumped up? I'm not in favour of that either, it makes the army less interesting.

Only their advantage in 5e and 6e, before that they had other bonus' to show the difference.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
An Ork will never have the finesse or skill of a Sororitas or a Tempestus

Finesse, no. Orks are pretty much antithesis to finesse. Skill? I would not be so sure. Remember that the only two beings that were able to threaten the Emperor were a Primarch and an Ork. I doubt that was just brute force that allowed the Ork to do so. If she had been a slow-witted brute, she would never have posed any kind of threat.

The Ork never threatened the Emperor, that was gone over by one of the HH books. Horus "saves" the Emperor, then the Emperor immediately erases the Ork Warboss from existence. Plus considering he's probably a perpetual, dying isn't an issue.


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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
A Space Marine Scout could reliably survive training that requires actually being shot with small-caliber weapons before they start.

Depend where. Shot him in the eye and he would not. Similarly, a Sister could survive depending on where you shoot her (might be a drawn nipple behind that link. Certainly is a buttload of stupidity. Seriously, we used to have that gak on TV for kids in France . ).

Not only can humans survive being shot through the eye, it's pathetically easy for an Astartes to do the same. Ceramic bones coupled with them having insane durability. Space Marines have had entire sections of their face removed and reduced down to the bone. They walked off these kinds of wounds.

 Redcruisair wrote:


That's funny. I rememer Loken (or was it Tarik?) Going into details about how the Auretian Technocracy's military was anything but pushovers.

Besides, the Auretian Technocracy didn't get keeled over in one day. Rather, it took the brilliance of Horus' planning skills and the full might of two of the most brutal Astartes legions to bring an end to the Auretian Technocracy, and even after all that, victory only came after a long drawn out war of attrition.

I just said they were demolished, not how easily.

The book DID make it awfully clear that the Marine inside the armour made all the difference in that war.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Plus considering he's probably a perpetual, dying isn't an issue.

That stupidity has not yet been retconned? Bah!

Most SM recruits die in the modification process. This has been reiterated in the new SM codex - I will post the fluff when I get home. It's a nice little diagram of the steps to becoming a space marine.

For gods sake marines have acid spit! Ws4 on scouts just represents spitting acid into the enemies eyes to decrease their skill by a whole WS level.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ws4 on scouts just represents spitting acid into the enemies eyes to decrease their skill by a whole WS level.

Except if your enemy has, like, a helmet.

Must be sticky acid spit that clogs up the lenses.

There's all sorts of things that can spit nasty stuff in the 40k universe, never seen it used

It's also something of a stretch to assume that...spit can be so accurately shot as to routinely hit eyes. Superhuman or no, that's just not a particularly accurate projectile and there's not a ton of force behind it. It's a relatively lame crutch to stand on, and holds no water against something that's wearing a helmet or is composed of materials that an acid isn't going to interact with.

A simple modern day police riot helmet with a plastic see-through visor will make acid-spit rather pointless for trying to blind anyone. There are tons of units in the game with such equipment, half the IG regiments have some form of eye/face protection, Eldar almost all do, Tau sport face-encompassing helmets, as do Dark Eldar, all the Assassins, the Skitarii, while who knows what it does to Necrons or Daemons, while Tyranids spit acid right back

Not if it is crazy space-acid!

Should note that the Marine doesn't literally hawk it up and gob it at someone - its described as operating like a cobra's venom spit, which is accurate to 1.5m (5ft) against a moving target.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Not if it is crazy space-acid!

But it is trying to go against crazy space-helmet!
The fact it is almost never used in the fluff and literally never used on the tabletop is telling.
I think the most obvious weak point is that it requires the marine to remove the helmet, and offer the enemy a nice headshot.

It was used in the first book of Brothers of the Snake against a DEldar.