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Alcibiades wrote:
There is nothing at all in the list of implants given to marines that would result in them having the superspeed and superintelligence that people are ascribing to them.

The details are fuzzy but we know that the result is true. They are very commonly described with the traits you mention.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Even if that is true, you're still looking at eight years training compared to fifteen.

8 Years + Genetic Enhancement > 15 years of training

We could run a study, but sadly those genetic enhancement do not exist, and therefore we just have to go by what the fluff and/or crunch say. Scouts are in-between 3 and 4, depending on edition. Stormtroopers and Sisters are always consistently BS4.

Ork Boyz are also WS4, whereas Battle Sisters are WS3.

Is it your opinion that your average Boy is a significantly more skillful melee combatant than a fully trained Battle Sister?

 j31c3n wrote:


If I recall correctly, Scouts had the same stats as Marines (aside from saving throw and leadership) for many, many editions in the past. This is simply a return to that form.

You do recall correctly, infact many people had a reaction much like peoples reaction to Scouts getting WS/BS4, to them going down to WS/BS3 I was pissed and stopped using scouts.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Is it your opinion that your average Boy is a significantly more skillful melee combatant than a fully trained Battle Sister?

Well, apparently Sisters do not train to melee that much, and boyz constantly fight and are quite skilled already by their genetic memory whatever, so… yes ?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
I've always thought Scouts should be WS4 BS4 S3 T3 because they're not in power armor.

The S3 T3 is not the power armor, else Sisters would be WS3 BS4 S4 T4.

I was totally unaware that Sisters had the Black Carapace and all the other genetic and biological modifications of Space Marines that are necessary for them to operate their power armor at peak efficiency.

Also, Centurions are fugly and Terminators are not.

 j31c3n wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
I've always thought Scouts should be WS4 BS4 S3 T3 because they're not in power armor.

The S3 T3 is not the power armor, else Sisters would be WS3 BS4 S4 T4.

I was totally unaware that Sisters had the Black Carapace and all the other genetic and biological modifications of Space Marines that are necessary for them to operate their power armor at peak efficiency.

The Black Carapace isn't going to effect strength or toughness, it's going to impact agility, mobility, and speed. IIRC.

Mind you, SoB armour has never been claimed to offer the same level of strength enhancement (there's even some sources to the contrary).

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Even if that is true, you're still looking at eight years training compared to fifteen.

Eight years of training, augmented by Aspirants generally having been brought up in the same kind of "grueling conditions"--if not harder conditions-- as the Scions/Sororitas were.

Remember that Astartes worlds are not all sunshine and roses. They also recruit from feral or death worlds, which are strictly offlimits to the Munitorum to recruit Guard regiments from.

 Kanluwen wrote:
which are strictly offlimits to the Munitorum to recruit Guard regiments from.

With a few very famous exceptions, like DKoK and Catachans.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
which are strictly offlimits to the Munitorum to recruit Guard regiments from.

With a few very famous exceptions, like DKoK and Catachans.

They don't recruit from all deathworlds or feral worlds; I just threw those two specific notations in there because it's worth mentioning.

Oooooh now I get what you mean.

Nevermind my post. Yes, you're right.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Eight years of training, augmented by Aspirants generally having been brought up in the same kind of "grueling conditions"--if not harder conditions-- as the Scions/Sororitas were.

Remember that Astartes worlds are not all sunshine and roses. They also recruit from feral or death worlds, which are strictly offlimits to the Munitorum to recruit Guard regiments from.

But Scions and Sororitas are not brought up to the conditions of a feral or death world. They are recruited from a Scola Progenium, where they learn how to use bolters and hotshot lasgun and chainswords and all that rather than learning how use a pointy stick and how to avoid places where there is bungasaurus dung, because bungasaurus are lethal.
See how one would actually help to learn what a model is going to do on the tabletop, and the other would not?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 j31c3n wrote:
I was totally unaware that Sisters had the Black Carapace and all the other genetic and biological modifications of Space Marines that are necessary for them to operate their power armor at peak efficiency.

Except the black carapace is mostly useful to read braille in armor. Hurray, your armor is now a second skin, you can decipher what the blind guy was reading without removing your gauntlet!

 j31c3n wrote:
Also, Centurions are fugly and Terminators are not.

Your call. Just proxy them then, or whatever.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Eight years of training, augmented by Aspirants generally having been brought up in the same kind of "grueling conditions"--if not harder conditions-- as the Scions/Sororitas were.

Remember that Astartes worlds are not all sunshine and roses. They also recruit from feral or death worlds, which are strictly offlimits to the Munitorum to recruit Guard regiments from.

But Scions and Sororitas are not brought up to the conditions of a feral or death world. They are recruited from a Scola Progenium, where they learn how to use bolters and hotshot lasgun and chainswords and all that rather than learning how use a pointy stick and how to avoid places where there is bungasaurus dung, because bungasaurus are lethal.
See how one would actually help to learn what a model is going to do on the tabletop, and the other would not?

Why do you assume that they only give a Scout limited training before shoving them off to the front? Its training, Implants and Training, then more training, then Fighting which is also training, then they get back from the fight to train more. Oh and since they dont really need sleep they can train 24 hours a day and cover that length of time the Sisters and Scions need in less time

Except the black carapace is mostly useful to read braille in armor. Hurray, your armor is now a second skin, you can decipher what the blind guy was reading without removing your gauntlet!

That same feature that allows them to read braille with out taking off your glove also lets you move more naturally with it on, cause like you said its a second skin now. You'd feel at home with it on and unencumbered by it, allowing you to be more agile.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:



That same feature that allows them to read braille with out taking off your glove also lets you move more naturally with it on, cause like you said its a second skin now. You'd feel at home with it on and unencumbered by it, allowing you to be more agile.

FFG represents the agility well I think, making the Astartes as hard to hit as if they were human-sized.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:



That same feature that allows them to read braille with out taking off your glove also lets you move more naturally with it on, cause like you said its a second skin now. You'd feel at home with it on and unencumbered by it, allowing you to be more agile.

FFG represents the agility well I think, making the Astartes as hard to hit as if they were human-sized.

Yeah, I really like how FFG represents them, hell I like how they represent everyone for the most part.

Yeah, the quality seems to have gone down a bit with time but it's not a big issue to fix.

Deathwatch portrays CSM and SM alike very well.

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Why do you assume that they only give a Scout limited training before shoving them off to the front? Its training, Implants and Training, then more training, then Fighting which is also training, then they get back from the fight to train more. Oh and since they dont really need sleep they can train 24 hours a day and cover that length of time the Sisters and Scions need in less time

Twenty hours a day - the catalepsian node explicitly does not replace sleep entirely and, in fact, has detrimental effects if used continuously.

That same feature that allows them to read braille with out taking off your glove also lets you move more naturally with it on, cause like you said its a second skin now. You'd feel at home with it on and unencumbered by it, allowing you to be more agile.

Which has what, exactly, to do with the armour protecting the wearer?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Which has what, exactly, to do with the armour protecting the wearer?

It lets you avoid getting hit to begin with.

Space Marines should be S4 T4.
Scouts should be S3 T3.

WS/BS should be 4 for both. They're all elite soldiers.

Scouts should have the same stats as Sororitas. They're effectively the same thing although with less armor. Surely the lack of S and T is because they're not equipped with the Black Carapace and can't make full use of their Power Armor's enhanced strength. It's not because they're women. All basic humans are S3 T3.

The only real difference between a Space Marine Scout and an Imperial Storm Trooper is their armament. They've had similarly grueling training and are similarly equipped for the most part.

Furyou Miko wrote:
Twenty hours a day - the catalepsian node explicitly does not replace sleep entirely and, in fact, has detrimental effects if used continuously.

If used constantly year round, of course they'd get weekends where they only have to train 20 hours a day.

Which has what, exactly, to do with the armour protecting the wearer?

Nothing, I didn't say that it did. I was saying it more to agree with;

Vaktathi wrote:I was totally unaware that Sisters had the Black Carapace and all the other genetic and biological modifications of Space Marines that are necessary for them to operate their power armor at peak efficiency. The Black Carapace isn't going to effect strength or toughness, it's going to impact agility, mobility, and speed. IIRC.

Since Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl seems to think the only benefits are relatively minor.

If the benefits of the Black Carapace had been in any way minor, then they would not bother with it!

There's a lot of stuff with Space Marine's that's pretty minor. Acid spit? It's a cool little nugget that pops up now and again for cool factor, but is hardly something that would be of such routine and critical importance to develop outside of "cool factor".

The Black Carapace has its benefits, but, like many things, likely something of a marginal one, something that makes a difference between foes of otherwise similar quality, tipping the edge, or that mitigates some sort of other drawback. Other units with similar armor don't have it and don't seem to be overly crippled by not having an equivalent.

It's something that mitigates mobility problems, not that really changes the effectiveness of the protection of the power armor. Even in FFG's 40k RPG's that often exaggerate SM capabilites in the eyes of many, the Black Carapace largely simply negates the to-hit bonus for being Hulk-Huge. It's a nice edge that has some benefit, but not something that's going to make a world of difference.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Black Carapace has its benefits, but, like many things, likely something of a marginal one, something that makes a difference between foes of otherwise similar quality, tipping the edge, or that mitigates some sort of other drawback. Other units with similar armor don't have it and don't seem to be overly crippled by not having an equivalent.

The Luna Wolves fought the Auretian Technocracy during the Great Crusade, whose armies were Astartes in every way (with PA and boltguns and tanks and everything) except they were normal humans inside the suits instead of Space Marines.

They got utterly demolished, and it was made very clear that it's the soldier inside the suit that made the difference. So clearly all those 'marginal' organs are actually major stuff.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Other units with similar armor don't have it and don't seem to be overly crippled by not having an equivalent.

It seems to be less 'you are crippled without it', and more 'it works without it but you're a monster with it'.

Personally I find that it mostly makes sense and is a good idea.

But I did have another possibility for your consideration...
How about WS3 and BS4? I could imagine that the "boost" from Power Armor is more effective on raw strength than aiming and Scouts seem to be set up in a shooty manner, plus them being shootier than they are choppy would be pretty sensible given their frequent role as snipers.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Black Carapace has its benefits, but, like many things, likely something of a marginal one, something that makes a difference between foes of otherwise similar quality, tipping the edge, or that mitigates some sort of other drawback. Other units with similar armor don't have it and don't seem to be overly crippled by not having an equivalent.

The Luna Wolves fought the Auretian Technocracy during the Great Crusade, whose armies were Astartes in every way (with PA and boltguns and tanks and everything) except they were normal humans inside the suits instead of Space Marines.

They got utterly demolished, and it was made very clear that it's the soldier inside the suit that made the difference. So clearly all those 'marginal' organs are actually major stuff.

I honestly do not recall this since it's been years since I've read those HH books, particularly the early ones with the Luna Wolves (I think I read them back when the game was still solidly in 4th edition).

That said, attributing all that power simply to the Black Carapace would seem to be out of proportion with all other military advancements ever for its relative capability. The idea that the black carapace provides that much more battlefield value is very difficult to swallow.

Weren't the Luna Wolves also at this point in the Crusade in direct command of great hordes of Imperial Army auxiliaries and spaceships to cover their supply lines, consolidate and hold ground, resupply them, etc, allowing all the elite power armored troops to be concentrated to best effect?

It seems to be less 'you are crippled without it', and more 'it works without it but you're a monster with it'.

Hrm, it's more a "You move with more grace and aren't quite as hulky". Not quite turning something into a monster, but giving an edge over an otherwise similarly equipped opponent. It's also an edge that would largely only matter in close quarters firefights and hand to hand combat, and be utterly irrelevant against heavy weapons fire, stuff like artillery/air-dropped bombs/tank shells/etc that have historically accounted for the overwhelmingly vast majority of casualties in warfare. Not pointless, but also hardly an overwhelmingly insurmountable combat advantage either.

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Furyou Miko wrote:
Twenty hours a day - the catalepsian node explicitly does not replace sleep entirely and, in fact, has detrimental effects if used continuously.

If used constantly year round, of course they'd get weekends where they only have to train 20 hours a day.

No, the fluff specifically states that it reduces their need to sleep so that they can get away with only four hours of sleep a night, and remain aware while sleeping.

Space Marines do not operate a 24 hour training schedule.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Why do you assume that they only give a Scout limited training before shoving them off to the front?

Because they are explicitly the rookies? And were even given WS3 BS3?
It is quite obvious that they have less training and experience than full on marines.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
That same feature that allows them to read braille with out taking off your glove also lets you move more naturally with it on, cause like you said its a second skin now. You'd feel at home with it on and unencumbered by it, allowing you to be more agile.

Will not give you S4, though. Will help you keep the WS4 and I4 with power armor on.

 Ashiraya wrote:
If the benefits of the Black Carapace had been in any way minor, then they would not bother with it!

40k, not bothering with things that brings only minor benefit? Are you kidding?

 Vaktathi wrote:


That said, attributing all that power simply to the Black Carapace would seem to be out of proportion with all other military advancements ever for its relative capability. The idea that the black carapace provides that much more battlefield value is very difficult to swallow.

Weren't the Luna Wolves also at this point in the Crusade in direct command of great hordes of Imperial Army auxiliaries and spaceships to cover their supply lines, consolidate and hold ground, resupply them, etc, allowing all the elite power armored troops to be concentrated to best effect?

It was not solely the Black Carapace, but the book made it very clear that the reason the Technocracy was so hopelessly outmatched was that one side's soldiers were human, and the other was Astartes.

It was Horus Rising, btw.

Hrm, it's more a "You move with more grace and aren't quite as hulky". Not quite turning something into a monster, but giving an edge over an otherwise similarly equipped opponent. It's also an edge that would largely only matter in close quarters firefights and hand to hand combat, and be utterly irrelevant against heavy weapons fire, stuff like artillery/air-dropped bombs/tank shells/etc that have historically accounted for the overwhelmingly vast majority of casualties in warfare. Not pointless, but also hardly an overwhelmingly insurmountable combat advantage either.

Keep in mind that in 40k, warfare is not fought like it is historically. Lance-equipped cavalry charges are seen alongside tank pushes, heavily armoured super-soldiers swing chainsaw swords and leap towards the enemy bearing great jump packs, and charging towards the enemy while swinging your sword furiously is generally a better idea than you'd assume it is.

People seem to take the DKoK and their way of war vastly out of proportion. 40k is fantasy-in-space, not sci-fi, and the clash of swords matters just as much as the exchange of artillery fire.