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Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Oh no, you could lose a 300 point unit for 2CPs!

....To a unit that costs 400+ points between the reapers, the farseer, and the warlock you used to buff them. 500 if you have them in range of an autarch. 600 if you gave them a Wave Serpent for turn 1 insurance which many lists do.

Yeah, fine with that.



"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






the_scotsman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Galef wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Also, FWIW...your claim about what the Reapers can "one round" is also false.

I remember you mentioned Flying Hive Tyrants and GMNDKs.

for both, the reapers do 6.6 wounds on average. If you drop them down and let them trigger the stratagem, they don't one-round them, they deal a little over half their health.
Exactly. And assuming you are buffing up those Reapers, you are actually spending 2-3 times the cost of a Flyrant or GMDK because of all the Characters need to buff those 10 Reapers

Reapers are good, but let's not pretend they are an auto-win choice.

-

This is a free round of shooting with the forewarned strategem - any buffs you can give them were duplicated in your actual shooting phase. Basically - this would be the best use of the buffs anyways. Like...I'm not going to a take a 10 man dark reaper without at least reroll 1's buff ether or I will probably guide them turn 1 if i am going first. Calculating a game situation without applying buffs is just foolish.


Boy, I just can't wait for the next three pages of you making a hyperbolic claim, being shown to be wrong, and ignoring the proof in favor of a post-hoc rationalization.

With maximum buffs up on the reapers, you have devoted 3 psychic powers (Guide, Fortune, and Conceal, the odds of getting all three off being 28%, divide that in two if you decide to factor in the fact that you have to go first to make it happen at all), 4CP for Lightning Reaction and Forewarned, positioned in cover, outside of 12" of all enemy units, with perfect line of sight to the entire board, and your opponent decides to be a complete doofus and instead of starting his GMNDK or Flyrant on the board, he deep strikes it directly in front of you to use the stratagem.

You deal 8.8 wounds on average. STILL not enough to reliably one-round the unit as you claimed.

The "no counterplay" gameplay situation you're describing requires dedication of a huge amount of resources (over half the CPs that the average Eldar army tends to have) and requires three successful psychic power casts, and it requires your opponent to make a blatantly stupid decision to deep strike their incredibly expensive unit who happens to be exactly the kind of unit Reapers want to attack without the possibility of putting him outside the line of sight of the reapers.

This is much more realistic with the grand master dreadknight - because he has to deepstrike to be useful.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in be
Fresh-Faced New User





tneva82 wrote:
 Eligius wrote:
This makes your point 1 void and I stand by my point that Roboute, while powerfull, isn't required in a SM tournament list.


Prove it. Show those teeming hordes of top ranking marine lists without Guillimann. I'm waiting. Not holding breath while doing it though.


http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Anthony-Chew-1st-Overall-Caledonian-Revolution-2017.pdf

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Lochrest-TH-3rd-Overall-Rampager-GT-2017.pdf

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Steven-Heitmeyer-3rd-Overall-Slobberknocker-2017.pdf

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/3rd-Overall-Mikael-Ek-Westeros-V-2017.pdf

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Tim-Travers-1st-Overall-Boise-Cup-GT-2017.pdf

Satisfied?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/07 20:06:18


"Honour, Compassion and Self-sacrifice" 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






the_scotsman wrote:
Oh no, you could lose a 300 point unit for 2CPs!

....To a unit that costs 400+ points between the reapers, the farseer, and the warlock you used to buff them. 500 if you have them in range of an autarch. 600 if you gave them a Wave Serpent for turn 1 insurance which many lists do.

Yeah, fine with that.



Those are all units you are taking anyways - it does not make the play less efficient - it makes it more efficient.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Eligius wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Eligius wrote:
This makes your point 1 void and I stand by my point that Roboute, while powerfull, isn't required in a SM tournament list.


Prove it. Show those teeming hordes of top ranking marine lists without Guillimann. I'm waiting. Not holding breath while doing it though.


http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Anthony-Chew-1st-Overall-Caledonian-Revolution-2017.pdf

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Lochrest-TH-3rd-Overall-Rampager-GT-2017.pdf

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Steven-Heitmeyer-3rd-Overall-Slobberknocker-2017.pdf

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/3rd-Overall-Mikael-Ek-Westeros-V-2017.pdf

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Tim-Travers-1st-Overall-Boise-Cup-GT-2017.pdf

Satisfied?

You do realize that 4/5 of these list automatically lose the game turn 1 now? and the one list that came in 3rd with 3 scout squads 3 devestator squads is just a fluke right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote:
Oh no, you could lose a 300 point unit for 2CPs!

....To a unit that costs 400+ points between the reapers, the farseer, and the warlock you used to buff them. 500 if you have them in range of an autarch. 600 if you gave them a Wave Serpent for turn 1 insurance which many lists do.

Yeah, fine with that.


You are forgetting to add the part where you lost it to a free round of shooting. 2 command points for your best unit removed...possibly the best use of command points ive ever seen. More on topic - the marine strategem could never do this can costs the same...seems to me like you are saying the marine stratagem SHOULD NOT be limited to 12" and be at -1.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/07 20:12:06


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Xeno,

I think you're going to need more data to support this claim. I personally think GK are hands down worse than marines atm. But if the trends hold true, marines will make top tables less and less as more non-power armor codices drop.

I think there's a lot of energy being spent needlessly in this thread.
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
1) But, as Vaktathi has shown, Predators don't need Grinding Advance to be good. The Predator Annihilator is as good a tank hunter as the best Leman Russ tank hunter, including Grinding Advance.

2) They don't have them. I'm sorry, but they don't. They seem fine without it - I've certainly seen more than zero Predators in lists - but they don't. I don't know what to tell you. I didn't make the decision, write the codex, or the like. They don't have it.

Why are you comparing a Predator to a Russ anyways? You make it sound like you want the Predator to be as good as a Russ.

It isn't really the best Tank Hunting Russ. The Annihilator with a Heavy Bolter (180 points) is getting 5.3 damage on a t8 vehicle with a 3+. Against the same kind of vehicle, a Battle Cannon Russ with a Lascannon (slightly cheaper) is getting 7 wounds total.


An Annihilator with a hull HB, at BS4+, should be averaging 4.14 wounds. A Battlecannon Russ, averaging seven (on 2d6)S8 AP-2 shots with an average of 2 damage each (on D3), with a Lascannon, is averaging 3.27 wounds against that target.


Why is the Annihilator being touted as the gold standard?
Because when it comes to tank hunting, lascannons are really good.

Again, a 190pt quadlas pred is averaging 5.185 wounds on a T6/T7/T8 3+sv tank, a 192pt Grinding Advance Lascannon Russ Annihilator is averaging 4.86 wounds. In a pitched fight, whoever fires first is going to win. The difference in T is irrelevant, as is the Russ tanks extra wound (11 vs 12 isnt huge and the 7% extra damage output of the Predator will cover that) and their cost is basically identical. Thats the best tank hunter the Guard has that isnt a superheavy, and it needs Grindind advance to merely make it on par with the Predator.


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

It's relatively a simple understanding of what I want if you had been paying attention at all.
1. Predators get Grinding Advance.
2. Predators get Chapter Tactics.
At which point your Quadlas Predator Annihilator is going to be averaging 7.77 wounds a turn on anything T8 or below with a 3+sv, which, for 190pts, is 35% more efficient at killing tanks per point invested than a stationary special character Pask in a double firing Las Vanquisher, and 32pts less in absolute terms to boot. Such a Predator would be doubling the wound output of a basic HS Las vanquisher per point invested while costing only 23pts more, while a 140pt naked Quadlas predator will match the already "best in class" current 190pt Quadlas pred. You'd be matching the damage output of a quad brace of BS3+ meltaguns at half range from from across the board.

Thats probably why they didnt get Grinding Advance.

(And I say that as someone with 4 lascannon predators for my Iron Warriors)


Nobody is using Imperial Knights and Land Raiders.
Yup, nobody anywhere takes those, they ceased existing entirely with 7E

Which is besides the point either way, which was that the quadlas Predator, regardless of T8 or T7 target, is the best performing tank hunter already, short of the double firing reroll everything Fire Prism combo, and even then its only slightly worse and doesnt require 2 tanks and a CP.




Already sorta covered this, but you're being intellectually dishonest by talking about the Vanquisher. That's easily the worst one for even the dedicated Anti-Tank job.
well, you keep evading literally every point I try and make my picking out one tiny point and trivializing it. Yeah, the Vanquisher isnt great, but it is the codex dedicated tank hunter, and even with the much bemoaned and borderline broken IG tank commander thats hitting on rerollable 2's and sporting a supplementary Lascannon and is ablr to knock out another Russ in two turns on average, is not matching the firepower of your proposed Predator.

Ive shown through multiple posts that the Quadlas Predator is already really good, is on par with a Grinding Advance Annihilator Russ and dramatically superior to any other Russ variant on a monster/tank huntong role, and regardless of whether the target is T7 or T8 or Battlecannon/Vanquisher Cannon, and without needing Grinding Advance to do it.

Adding Grinding Advance to the Predator would make it an absurdly hideous tank hunter that would dramatically outperform any other equivalent HS tank.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Martel732 wrote:
Xeno,

I think you're going to need more data to support this claim. I personally think GK are hands down worse than marines atm. But if the trends hold true, marines will make top tables less and less as more non-power armor codices drop.

I think there's a lot of energy being spent needlessly in this thread.

Greyknights are next worse. Grandmaster dreadknights are really good units and can be spammed. With an AM ally - it's incredibly potent. I have conceeded that greyknights are both really bad. They are 1 and 2. Makes no difference to me. It's no excuse for the gross imbalance of yet another edition of 40k.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
1) But, as Vaktathi has shown, Predators don't need Grinding Advance to be good. The Predator Annihilator is as good a tank hunter as the best Leman Russ tank hunter, including Grinding Advance.

2) They don't have them. I'm sorry, but they don't. They seem fine without it - I've certainly seen more than zero Predators in lists - but they don't. I don't know what to tell you. I didn't make the decision, write the codex, or the like. They don't have it.

Why are you comparing a Predator to a Russ anyways? You make it sound like you want the Predator to be as good as a Russ.

It isn't really the best Tank Hunting Russ. The Annihilator with a Heavy Bolter (180 points) is getting 5.3 damage on a t8 vehicle with a 3+. Against the same kind of vehicle, a Battle Cannon Russ with a Lascannon (slightly cheaper) is getting 7 wounds total. I also have points left there for a HK Missile, so that'll potentially make the damage greater. What the math is on that I don't know because I don't know the HK states off the top of my head. Either way, that's not including any regimental bonuses for offensive power (you'd probably just do Cadian for the Annihilator and Catachan for the Battle Cannon, correct?)

Why is the Annihilator being touted as the gold standard?


Your math for the battlecannon is wrong.

Battlecannon Russ w/ Lascannon:
- Battlecannon: Shoots twice (7 shots avg). Hits 3.5 times. Wounds 1.75 times. Gets through the save with 1.16 wounds, doing 2.3 damage.
- Lascannon: Shoots once (1 shot). Hits .5 times. Wounds .33 times. Gets through the save with .28 wounds, doing .97 damage.

Total: 3.2 damage

Annihilator Russ w/ Heavy Bolter:
- Twin Lascannon: Shoots twice (4 shots). Hits 2 times. Wounds 1.33 times. Gets through the save with 1.11 wounds, doing 3.89 damage.
- Heavy Bolter: Shoots once (3 shots). Hits 1.5 times. Wounds .5 times. Gets through the save with .25 wounds, doing .25 damage.

Total: 4.14 damage

EDIT:
Just for completeness:

- Hunter-Killer Missle: Shoots once (1 shot). Hits .5 times. Wounds .25 times. Gets through the save with .17 wounds, doing .583 wounds, bringing the Battlecannon Russ up to a total of 3.78 damage, still less than the Annihilator.

My bad. The calculator messed up super heavily when I added the Lascannon.
That said, we weren't adding Regiment bonuses. Doing everything one at a time instead of all at once, I'm getting 4.8 with a Cadian bonus, and 4 with the Catachan bonus.
It's barely any better vs T8, and that goes to 5 with T7. I'm still gonna call BS on it being the premier tank hunting Russ.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




There are too many posters who hate marine players for this exercise to be worthwhile. There are also too many posters that don't play against good screens on a consistent basis. There is the "don't want it to be true crowd" and the "just don't get it and never will crowd", and between the two of them, this thread is destined for failure.

The truth is that marines have rarely ever been easy mode in 40K. They are usually a terrible starter army, because of their unforgiving nature. GW pimps them as the starter army, and relies on the marine opponents having an equally poor grasp of the game to make the marines a viable choice.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Eligius wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Eligius wrote:
This makes your point 1 void and I stand by my point that Roboute, while powerfull, isn't required in a SM tournament list.


Prove it. Show those teeming hordes of top ranking marine lists without Guillimann. I'm waiting. Not holding breath while doing it though.


http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Anthony-Chew-1st-Overall-Caledonian-Revolution-2017.pdf

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Lochrest-TH-3rd-Overall-Rampager-GT-2017.pdf

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Steven-Heitmeyer-3rd-Overall-Slobberknocker-2017.pdf

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/3rd-Overall-Mikael-Ek-Westeros-V-2017.pdf

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Tim-Travers-1st-Overall-Boise-Cup-GT-2017.pdf

Satisfied?

That's not a horde of lists, and one of those I'm pretty sure (the last BA one) is from the VERY first tournament really done without the Flier errata.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
My bad. The calculator messed up super heavily when I added the Lascannon.
That said, we weren't adding Regiment bonuses. Doing everything one at a time instead of all at once, I'm getting 4.8 with a Cadian bonus, and 4 with the Catachan bonus.
It's barely any better vs T8, and that goes to 5 with T7. I'm still gonna call BS on it being the premier tank hunting Russ.


I'll do the Math with Cadians for both, just for illustration:
vs T8/3+
Cadian Battle Tank:
- Battlecannon: 2.722
- Lascannon: 1.134
- Hunter Killer Missile: 0.681

Total: 4.537

Cadian Annihilator:
- Twin Lascannon: 4.537 (hah)
- Heavy Bolter: 0.292

Total: 4.829

The Annihilator is still better.
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




 Xenomancers wrote:
Greyknights are next worse. Grandmaster dreadknights are really good units and can be spammed. With an AM ally - it's incredibly potent. I have conceeded that greyknights are both really bad. They are 1 and 2. Makes no difference to me. It's no excuse for the gross imbalance of yet another edition of 40k.


Aren't you the one saying that you should just consider a codex as a stand alone army? If GKs are tied with SM only with the aid of AM allies then it's pretty clear that by themselves they are the worst.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Martel732 wrote:
There are too many posters who hate marine players for this exercise to be worthwhile. There are also too many posters that don't play against good screens on a consistent basis. There is the "don't want it to be true crowd" and the "just don't get it and never will crowd", and between the two of them, this thread is destined for failure.

The truth is that marines have rarely ever been easy mode in 40K. They are usually a terrible starter army, because of their unforgiving nature. GW pimps them as the starter army, and relies on the marine opponents having an equally poor grasp of the game to make the marines a viable choice.

Why do they hate marines though - they are cool to me.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I said marine players.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Slayer-Fan123, I'm not sure what you want from me. You're welcome to claim that the Annihilator is a bad tank-hunting Russ variant but in truth it's 1) not, and 2) it's directly comparable to the Predator Annihilator.

Vaktathi has also shown you some excellent math, proving that the Predator Annihilator outperforms both, and illustrating why it doesn't have Grinding Advance.

I'm not sure what more you want, but at this point you seem like you're just salty about Predators not being better than Russes. I'm sorry, but they're not supposed to be. That's just... how it is. Guard have always been the army for treadheads.

I've literally given you numbers to work on - we can calculate it fifteen different ways, with Regimental Doctrines, with cover, without cover, with Grinding Advance, without Grinding Advance, against Baneblades or Land Raiders, but the Annihilator hunts tanks better than the barebones Russ. It's just a fact.

And the Predator Annihilator, in its current iteration and without Grinding Advance, is better still.

I have no idea what more you're asking for. I simply don't.
   
Made in be
Fresh-Faced New User





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Eligius wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Eligius wrote:
This makes your point 1 void and I stand by my point that Roboute, while powerfull, isn't required in a SM tournament list.


Prove it. Show those teeming hordes of top ranking marine lists without Guillimann. I'm waiting. Not holding breath while doing it though.


http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Anthony-Chew-1st-Overall-Caledonian-Revolution-2017.pdf

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Lochrest-TH-3rd-Overall-Rampager-GT-2017.pdf

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Steven-Heitmeyer-3rd-Overall-Slobberknocker-2017.pdf

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/3rd-Overall-Mikael-Ek-Westeros-V-2017.pdf

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Tim-Travers-1st-Overall-Boise-Cup-GT-2017.pdf

Satisfied?

That's not a horde of lists, and one of those I'm pretty sure (the last BA one) is from the VERY first tournament really done without the Flier errata.


I never claimed that a horde of non-Roboute SM army lists inhabit the top 3 of 40k tournaments. I just said that a SM list doesn't need Roboute to do well at a tournament which i've now proven.

I'm not responsible for other poster's hyperbolic replies to my posts.

"Honour, Compassion and Self-sacrifice" 
   
Made in us
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Denver, Colorado

Have you heard of this thing called orks? Look them up and get back to me on 'the worst'.

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Words to live by. 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






I don't hate marine players, I hate crappy, unsupported arguments. I can't help who makes those arguments extremely frequently - spoiler alert, the playerbase the most used to having things their way and getting extra attention is going to be the most vocal when it comes to wanting more. Most of the other factions' complaints are for things that the marines already have and have had for a long time - chapter tactics, up to date models, a new unit that fills this or that category like Admech transports or a Dark Eldar unit that can deal with flyers.

8th ed is a still developing tournament meta. Two of the "big dog" lists that have come through since that development began were primarily focused around vanilla Space Marines, as well as a couple oddballs/flukes. One of those big dog lists, as you mentioned, resulted in a rebalance of the game to remove it from the meta.

Does that mean we have evidence that marines are the best codex? no. Does it mean they're the worst? Also no.

The entire focus of this thread has been "Another army can do a similar thing my army does, but theirs is better in more situations!" I don't care what army you play, that's the height of petulant.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I agree that there is a lack of hard evidence at this particular time. At the very least, we have a small sample size.

I will predict that non-Rowboat lists become more and more rare as time goes on, and that seems like a red flag if it comes true.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





One-rounding most of those 300+ point options you bring up with that 600pt combo is quite a bit more than 'rolling a little better than average'. Average dice apparently brings them down to half, and that's 10 or 20 shots (depending on shot type) each rolling 3 times (hit/wound/save) discounting rerolls and FnP. Rule of large numbers starts adjusting the spread. Devation further from the center - especially all the way up to double - over 30 or 60 dice rolls is very unlikely.

Even if it did, how is it make SM worse than Orkz (/Tau/DE/Necrons/whatever)?

As for the claim that there's never a place for the SM variant, I think that's just foolish. What happens if Fire Dragons or Wraithguard WWP within 9" of a Sternie or Command or Dev squad?

Honestly, if I dropped in a 5man and the opponent used 2 command points to wipe it, that's a trade. That's counterplay.

The CWE one is still better, but maybe if you used more sub-300pt units, it wouldn't seem so OP?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/07 21:02:04


 
   
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Florida

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Have you heard of this thing called orks? Look them up and get back to me on 'the worst'.


Orks do not have their codex yet. There's still hope for them.

I play:
40K: Daemons, Tau
AoS: Blades of Khorne, Disciples of Tzeentch
Warmachine: Convergence of Cyriss
Infinity: Haqqislam, Tohaa
Malifaux: Bayou
Star Wars Legion: Republic & Separatists
MESBG: Far Harad, Misty Mountains 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut





 BaconCatBug wrote:
My hypothesis is that the SM Codex was intentionally made bland and underpowered, because people will buy Marines regardless of rules, while making all other factions seem stronger by comparison, thus driving up sales of non-Marines.


I bet if i went into people's comment histories i'd see tons of "GW makes everything for SM better, because they are the poster child and sell the best".

Pick a lane, folks.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




The nuclear dumpster fire of primaris disproves that for sure.
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

Martel732 wrote:
The nuclear dumpster fire of primaris disproves that for sure.
everything related to the Primaris marines was a dumpster fire. A stupid concept executed in a stupid manner with stupid rules and an even more stupid name

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in ca
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






Eh, credit where it is due. the models are very kickass and "Primaris Marine" isn't that bad of a name, at least not compared to "Aelf" or "Duardin", which sounds like someone sneezed on the autocorrect.

Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!


Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Eh, credit where it is due. the models are very kickass and "Primaris Marine" isn't that bad of a name, at least not compared to "Aelf" or "Duardin", which sounds like someone sneezed on the autocorrect.

And the rules are pretty cool too. 2 wound Marines with 30" AP -1 bolters? Yes please.

   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Xenomancers wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

10 man squad with all with reaper-launchers...what unit in this game actually has more firepower than that?


Hellblasters
Centurions loaded out
Sternguard with Combi-plasma within 12"
Obliterators rolling average

Note how 3 of those units are in the Marine codex. C'mon man, you're not even trying.


Helblasters have less firepower and they cost more and in order to have reasonable firepower have to risk killing themselves. - Less firepower against what? Against MEQ/TEQ they far outpace Reapers. They also have different weapon options, unlike Reapers.
Centurions loaded out are like 140 points a peice. - you would auto lose the game for taking the unit - "What unit in this game has more firepower" your rules, not mine.
guess i wont deep strike withing 12 inches of sterngaurd or hellblasters for that matter - again packs waaayy more firepower against some units.
oblits are max units of 3 - they wouldn't benefit much plus can't cover as much area with 24 inch range. - 12 shots vs. 10, can Deep Strike without stratagem and double-fire with Stratagem


Heck, Grav-Devastators give a unit of 10 Reapers a run for their money vs. MEQ/ TEQ targets.

To re-iterate the movement of goal posts because it's funny.

"What unit has more firepower?"
"What unit has more firepower that isn't a superheavy"
"What unit has more firepower that isn't a superheavy and isn't more expensive"
"What unit has more firepower that isn't a superheavy, isn't more expensive, and 'firepower' is measured only against tanks (I guess?)"
"What unit has more firepower that isn't a superheavy, isn't more expensive, has 'firepower' being measured against tanks (I guess?), and has the same or better range."
"What unit has more firepower that isn't a superheavy, isn't more expensive, has 'firepower' being measured against tanks (I guess?), and has the same or better range. Oh, and include buffs."

Whatever, man.

Martel732 wrote:

I think there's a lot of energy being spent needlessly in this thread.

It is not often that I agree with Martel. But when I do...

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




They funny thing is, everyone keeps saying Grey Knights are the worst codex yet they are arguably one of the strongest against the biggest metas right now which are daemon and smite spam lists. They just happen to be under par against everything else.
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

 Galef wrote:
 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Eh, credit where it is due. the models are very kickass and "Primaris Marine" isn't that bad of a name, at least not compared to "Aelf" or "Duardin", which sounds like someone sneezed on the autocorrect.

And the rules are pretty cool too. 2 wound Marines with 30" AP -1 bolters? Yes please.


lolwut, foot slogging garbage marines that fire 5-10 shots of strength 4 weaponry that does 1 damage.

If these guys were good, Necron Warriors would be good.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator





Let me edit my post and say just 1 thing. Ynnari.

They get to do out of sequence actions without having to waste any CPs.

Soul burst really should have required a 2+ roll to activate at the very least. Incredibly frustrating to have to NOT kill units or else get shot/assaulted/retreated every time.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/08 00:19:50


 
   
 
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