Forgeworld Huge Price Spike

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**Malathrim**

I don't understand why FW even exists anymore. Many of their 40k and 30k models are done with CAD now anyways aren't they? And they would be popular enough to warrant plastic die costs if the prices were cheaper. Then the rules could all be written by the same team and be more in sync and sensible....like all GW rules are

)

**Not Online!!!**

Bellerophon wrote:
Azmodaeus wrote:
Bellerophon you do present a well reasoned argument however there is a massive and glaring issue; we have easy access to a global economy.

FW do not have Australian offices, warehouses or costs. This move is purely motivated by profit just as the previous GW region locking was.

I am sick of being gouged by trashy companies at no benefit to myself so I will take my money elsewhere... and yes I have spent fairly significant sums on this hobby.
Far more than most casual hobbyists would spend in a decade over the three years I have been collecting.

I'm sure you're right on the motive - they probably decided that they were missing out on extra profits by not integrating FW into their normal pricing scheme. I guess my main point is that it's surprising it took them this long to do it. Whether it has a long term effect on sales remains to be seen, but the accountancy team must have calculated the likely outcome as greater overall profit otherwise they wouldn't have done it. So they probably expect the additional profit from their remaining sales will outweigh the lost sales from the folk who think the hikes are too much. The global economy is a good point, enough that they feel the need to stop you from buying from cheaper markets with region locking. I honestly don't know to what extent other industries do this - tech for example. That would be interesting to find out. I suspect most people buy in their local market even if they're not region locked, but then general tech consumers probably aren't as switched on to international prices as the GW-gaming crowd. I wonder how much of that comes down to GW's daft website design where if you find a page through google it likes to show you it in a random currency.

And I do sympathise on the feeling about being price gouged. For perhaps a similar example, I've spent a lot of money on my PC and I may have been in the market for a new graphics card - but the prices have been inflated in the last year or so to a level that I'm not willing to pay, because cryptominers are buying them all up and the sellers are hiking their prices accordingly. I refuse to pay what they're charging at the moment, so I'll hang on to my several-generations-old card until the new cards fall to a price which I think is reasonable, or until my old one gives up. (Or unless I decide that Brexit will drive prices up even further and figure I'd better buy now...)

Graphics cards had a lot to do with the whole mining thing, i wanted to upgrade my 700er nvidia to a 1080 ti, well, after reading the prices i kinda decided to buy 40k instead. ( recently though the 1080s should have dropped in price, might need to look into it.)

As for the price gouging, i can somewhat understand GW, as in they deliver to sellers to the local market, which need to make a profit (however even those get price gouged), what i do not understand explicitly about FW, is they produce and sell from the UK (USA now too) but ship the stuff around the globe with most of the shipping beeing taken care of price wise with their inpriced tax which they do not pay for selling the stuff outside of the UK. Additionally smaller orders burden the buyer with the shipping cost, ergo they have a win win situation. Since they however ship directly one should and could assume that they only need to get a profit in the scale of UK costs/ USA costs, meanwhile they'll happily price gouge non EU markets.

For me the era forgewolrd is over anyways since my army got squatted, still i'd like a malcador, but frankly since they are anyways rule wise terrible i stay with what i have and will look for alternatives.

**Mayk0l**

I don't know..
I'd be angry but I rather have FW get it right like GW have been doing the last years. No idea if it's related but since Bligh died I feel like FW have made a string of strange decisions.

If it's Brexit related then maybe FW should move to Amsterdam like every other decent formerly-UK-based company

**vaklor4**

Tbh im a bit of a cheap skate to begin with, so I might just go recasting just to save a buck. Heck, I was probably gonna go recasting to begin with if the quality is good. I've never been one for customer loyalty when it comes to hobby stuff.

**MeanGreenStompa**

Those in this thread pointing the finger beyond FW at the accounting team are correct, well in the sense that this revision and the gak-eating insult of a 30-40% sudden price hike that came with it, is nothing to do with Forge World and everything to do with the beam counters at a much higher level of GW.

It has certainly put a very sizable dent in my purchasing plans. We've gone way beyond the idea of rising price to cover manufacture and instead demonstrated an overt greed. I was building two FW armies, I will be casting my eye about now for other purchasing choices.

**Amishprn86**

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Those in this thread pointing the finger beyond FW at the accounting team are correct, well in the sense that this revision and the gak-eating insult of a 30-40% sudden price hike that came with it, is nothing to do with Forge World and everything to do with the beam counters at a much higher level of GW.

It has certainly put a very sizable dent in my purchasing plans. We've gone way beyond the idea of rising price to cover manufacture and instead demonstrated an overt greed. I was building two FW armies, I will be casting my eye about now for other purchasing choices.

We dont know if GW tells them what to price actually. They never said how their inner operations for finances are.

**HoundsofDemos**

I do have one question since google has not given me much insight to the how games workshop and forgeworld actually communicate with each other. Do we have any kind of official / semi official source that explains how two coordinate and plan things.

**Rolsheen**

Why are so many people wanting Forgeworld to go out of business? Yes the price increase is stupid, yes we should boycott until they listen but wanting them to shut down just for the hell of it is just petty and narrowminded. If you don't want to buy from them then don't but some people like Forgeworld models and want to buy them.

**Stux**

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I do have one question since google has not given me much insight to the how games workshop and forgeworld actually communicate with each other. Do we have any kind of official / semi official source that explains how two coordinate and plan things.

No, not that I've seen. I only have what I've heard from staff and it's a bit vague.

We know it is all one company, that Forgeworld is just a sub brand.

We know a lot of their work is done separately from core GW though, that they have separate production space (in the same complex mind), separate rules writers and so forth. The guys who work in the FW store in Nottingham are literally the same pool of people who work the regular store there too though.

The rumours are that the FW director has quite a lot of autonomy on how to run FW, but that a lot of people at GW are not too happy with him at the moment. But there's nothing substantial to base that on, it's just grapevine stuff.

**MeanGreenStompa**

Amishprn86 wrote:
MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Those in this thread pointing the finger beyond FW at the accounting team are correct, well in the sense that this revision and the gak-eating insult of a 30-40% sudden price hike that came with it, is nothing to do with Forge World and everything to do with the beam counters at a much higher level of GW.

It has certainly put a very sizable dent in my purchasing plans. We've gone way beyond the idea of rising price to cover manufacture and instead demonstrated an overt greed. I was building two FW armies, I will be casting my eye about now for other purchasing choices.

We dont know if GW tells them what to price actually. They never said how their inner operations for finances are.

It's been discussed over the years. FW maintains independence over it's creative team and it's miniature manufacturing. The pricing structure, storage, product codes and delivery system is dictated by the Board, through the Accountancy and Sales teams. FW was traditionally left alone to do it's thing as long as it pulled in a profit, but of late, it's own success brought it under the microscope and, horribly for us, it's pricing and so on was recently revised to bring it into lockstep with the markups seen in Citadel products.

It sucks, I'm pissed off and angry about it and it's put a very significant dent in my spending with them and I have two FW armies halfway done and two more on paper that now will likely not see the light of day, but it is not FW's fault, it's the grey suits they answer to.

**Amishprn86**

But we dont know if they give reports to GW HQ's, or if they have monthly/weekly meetings, or etc...

They are easily independent for the most part, the question how, how much?

**MeanGreenStompa**

Amishprn86 wrote:
But we dont know if they give reports to GW HQ's, or if they have monthly/weekly meetings, or etc...

They are easily independent for the most part, the question how, how much?

Creatively, highly independent, other than regular meetings to ensure they and Citadel aren't about to tread on each other's toes.

Fiscally? Not in the slightest. They answer to corporate in the same manner Citadel does.

**Azmodaeus**

I've heard on the grapevine that Forgeworld has received very few orders from Australia and NZ since the price hike, sounds like this business decision is paying off!

**Overread**

Depends how it compares to before the price hike. A lot of comments we've seen here have been "well I was thinking of one day buying some FW but now I won't" ergo a large number of people were potential customers not actual customers.

That said I'd expect there to be a significant drop. The real pressure will be where we are in a year or two when GW sees if its a blip that recovers itself or if it produces a lasting effect.

**tneva82**

And how other sales happen. Australia was unlikely to be big market anyway. Increased UK sales could easily more than compensate. And even in europe this varies from slight increase to slight decrease(yes that's right. Depending on your purchase habit this could be price DECREASE for customer).

GW has information regarding this with GW sales proper. Likely they used that when they told FW to go for same system.

**Azmodaeus**

I expect you're right and in a couple of years this will all largely be forgotten by hobbyists.

I still don't see this as a good move for the hobby or for the company though.

**The_Real_Chris**

vaklor4 wrote:
Tbh im a bit of a cheap skate to begin with, so I might just go recasting just to save a buck. Heck, I was probably gonna go recasting to begin with if the quality is good. I've never been one for customer loyalty when it comes to hobby stuff.

But all for piracy? Not really customer loyalty - that is not buy from competitors. While I wouldn't criticism someone for recasting OOP stuff, recasting currently on sale items is directly stealing. This is a non essential item, not a loaf of bread.

**warpedpig**

I’ll be putting my money where my mouth is so to speak. Gonna sell off my huge eldar Force and quit 40k. Tired of price gouging from GW. I’ll just play computer games. Less time investment and a thousand times cheaper. And so much less logistics involved in getting a game going. So long GW. You greedy bastards killed it for me

**hobojebus**

The_Real_Chris wrote:
vaklor4 wrote:
Tbh im a bit of a cheap skate to begin with, so I might just go recasting just to save a buck. Heck, I was probably gonna go recasting to begin with if the quality is good. I've never been one for customer loyalty when it comes to hobby stuff.

But all for piracy? Not really customer loyalty - that is not buy from competitors. While I wouldn't criticism someone for recasting OOP stuff, recasting currently on sale items is directly stealing. This is a non essential item, not a loaf of bread.

No it's not much the same way downloading a game off a piracy site isnt.

If someone's unwilling to pay the retail cost and goes to a recaster/pirate you haven't lost a sale the fact is you were never going to get that person's money even if the recaster/pirate wasn't there.

As I've said before it's not a legal issue it's a moral one, you may think it immoral to use a recaster but others dont.

**Stux**

hobojebus wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:
vaklor4 wrote:
Tbh im a bit of a cheap skate to begin with, so I might just go recasting just to save a buck. Heck, I was probably gonna go recasting to begin with if the quality is good. I've never been one for customer loyalty when it comes to hobby stuff.

But all for piracy? Not really customer loyalty - that is not buy from competitors. While I wouldn't criticism someone for recasting OOP stuff, recasting currently on sale items is directly stealing. This is a non essential item, not a loaf of bread.

No it's not much the same way downloading a game off a piracy site isnt.

If someone's unwilling to pay the retail cost and goes to a recaster/pirate you haven't lost a sale the fact is you were never going to get that person's money even if the recaster/pirate wasn't there.

As I've said before it's not a legal issue it's a moral one, you may think it immoral to use a recaster but others dont.

It's not that simple.

You are right that it is not theft. At worst it is infringement. But it still may well be illegal.

That does generally require demonstration that the infringement has resulted in loss of earnings or value of the work. You claim that people who buy recasts weren't buying from Forgeworld anyway, and while certainly sometimes that would be true I think it would be impossible to claim with a straight face that recasters don't cause some money that would have gone to GW to instead go to recasters.

It is at best legally grey, so you can't claim there isn't a legal element to all this.

**Spectral Ceramite**

When I buy from Forge world or ebay (I make sure if buy from ebay is exact GW product). Honestly, it's not that big of a deal, I have seen reforges and mabye save 30% and I think I can save 30% or buy legit from Forge world and get:
1. 100% return if not a good casting
2. Support the hobby
3. Feel good that I didn't buy from some person that their life goal is to live off someone else

I always choose Forge world it's not that big of a deal that gunna cry a river.

EDIT: I honestly wouldn't care if the reforger offers a refund if crap casting...the fact that they make their living on someone else is enough for me to go FU.

**hobojebus**

Yeah but then you have to appreciate fw pricing can be fubar, tell me the necromunda squat is worth £18 and I'll laugh in your face.

If they can release three hired gun resin models for £20 there's no justification for the squat being nearly the same price, that's why someone I know went to a Russian sight and got every special character out to date for 35 euroes.

If prices were more reasonable there would be no market for recasters in the first place.

An item is only worth what the customer is willing to pay.

A customers only obligation is to find the best deal for themselves, nobody is owed a living.

**Stux**

hobojebus wrote:
Yeah but then you have to appreciate fw pricing can be fubar, tell me the necromunda squat is worth £18 and I'll laugh in your face.

If they can release three hired gun resin models for £20 there's no justification for the squat being nearly the same price, that's why someone I know went to a Russian sight and got every special character out to date for 35 euroes.

If prices were more reasonable there would be no market for recasters in the first place.

An item is only worth what the customer is willing to pay.

A customers only obligation is to find the best deal for themselves, nobody is owed a living.

I'm sorry but the idea that a consumer can vote with their wallet and the idea that someone can profit off the work of others by undercutting them with a product that infringes on their intellectual property are worlds apart.

Recasters can sell so cheap because they put nothing into design and development. GW prices may too high, but there is no moral justification for what recasters do. You aren't entitled to GW products by any means just because you don't like their prices.

**Spectral Ceramite**

Stux wrote:
hobojebus wrote:
Yeah but then you have to appreciate fw pricing can be fubar, tell me the necromunda squat is worth £18 and I'll laugh in your face.

If they can release three hired gun resin models for £20 there's no justification for the squat being nearly the same price, that's why someone I know went to a Russian sight and got every special character out to date for 35 euroes.

If prices were more reasonable there would be no market for recasters in the first place.

An item is only worth what the customer is willing to pay.

A customers only obligation is to find the best deal for themselves, nobody is owed a living.

I'm sorry but the idea that a consumer can vote with their wallet and the idea that someone can profit off the work of others by undercutting them with a product that infringes on their intellectual property are worlds apart.

Recasters can sell so cheap because they put nothing into design and development. GW prices may too high, but there is no moral justification for what recasters do. You aren't entitled to GW products by any means just because you don't like their prices.

Exactly

**Wyzilla**

The_Real_Chris wrote:
vaklor4 wrote:
Tbh im a bit of a cheap skate to begin with, so I might just go recasting just to save a buck. Heck, I was probably gonna go recasting to begin with if the quality is good. I've never been one for customer loyalty when it comes to hobby stuff.

But all for piracy? Not really customer loyalty - that is not buy from competitors. While I wouldn't criticism someone for recasting OOP stuff, recasting currently on sale items is directly stealing. This is a non essential item, not a loaf of bread.

It's just pure capitalism. If FW/GW want to stay in business then they need to competitively price their models so as to stay in business. And when they rise too high people will simply flock to recasters due to the obscenely low prices they offer. It's just the result of their actions, and results they should anticipate like any good businessman seeking to achieve long term profits. The issue here is that GW/FW for some idiot reason is once more suffering from the delusion that short term profits are stable when, if anything, they weaken the company in the long term game as customer loyalty wavers. You literally can't stop recasting from being a thing and thus must take it into consideration with any price hike.

**Spectral Ceramite**

Wyzilla wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:
vaklor4 wrote:
Tbh im a bit of a cheap skate to begin with, so I might just go recasting just to save a buck. Heck, I was probably gonna go recasting to begin with if the quality is good. I've never been one for customer loyalty when it comes to hobby stuff.

But all for piracy? Not really customer loyalty - that is not buy from competitors. While I wouldn't criticism someone for recasting OOP stuff, recasting currently on sale items is directly stealing. This is a non essential item, not a loaf of bread.

It's just pure capitalism. If FW/GW want to stay in business then they need to competitively price their models so as to stay in business. And when they rise too high people will simply flock to recasters due to the obscenely low prices they offer. It's just the result of their actions, and results they should anticipate like any good businessman seeking to achieve long term profits. The issue here is that GW/FW for some idiot reason is once more suffering from the delusion that short term profits are stable when, if anything, they weaken the company in the long term game as customer loyalty wavers. You literally can't stop recasting from being a thing and thus must take it into consideration with any price hike.

They should take that into their price mark up strategy (100% agree), I also think the prices are a bit high. But the fact that people will flock to criminals (re-casters etc) is a bit of a stretch. They are probably focusing on the British market and everything else is a bonus (cause new factory in the States will maybe see reduction of cost in the states soon too, to build up a market cause was "man was so expensive before, now is so cheap" mentality).

Re-casters are criminals btw, just in-case are deluded into thinking games get made for free.

**Wyzilla**

Spectral Ceramite wrote:
Wyzilla wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:
vaklor4 wrote:
Tbh im a bit of a cheap skate to begin with, so I might just go recasting just to save a buck. Heck, I was probably gonna go recasting to begin with if the quality is good. I've never been one for customer loyalty when it comes to hobby stuff.

But all for piracy? Not really customer loyalty - that is not buy from competitors. While I wouldn't criticism someone for recasting OOP stuff, recasting currently on sale items is directly stealing. This is a non essential item, not a loaf of bread.

It's just pure capitalism. If FW/GW want to stay in business then they need to competitively price their models so as to stay in business. And when they rise too high people will simply flock to recasters due to the obscenely low prices they offer. It's just the result of their actions, and results they should anticipate like any good businessman seeking to achieve long term profits. The issue here is that GW/FW for some idiot reason is once more suffering from the delusion that short term profits are stable when, if anything, they weaken the company in the long term game as customer loyalty wavers. You literally can't stop recasting from being a thing and thus must take it into consideration with any price hike.

They should take that into their price mark up strategy (100% agree), I also think the prices are a bit high. But the fact that people will flock to criminals (re-casters etc) is a bit of a stretch. They are probably focusing on the British market and everything else is a bonus (cause new factory in the States will maybe see reduction of cost in the states soon too, to build up a market cause was "man was so expensive before, now is so cheap" mentality).

Re-casters are criminals btw, just in-case are deluded into thinking games get made for free.

Recasters aren't criminals or good people, they're just the natural response of the market to high prices. Their existence is solely because of the actions of GW/FW, and they would cease to exist if they were to adjust their prices to something the average consumer found tolerable instead of eye-watering. People won't necessarily "flock" to recasters (mainly because it's a

to contact one), but GW's sales will decline as recasters siphon off the desire for (cheap) GW/FW products until the company goes under after exsanguinating. If you don't want recasters then price your product competitively and hit them where it hurts. Don't expand in the US: move all production over to China to take advantage of lower labor costs to make all of your products in plastic for dirt cheap while not really suffering any loss in quality. But if people see a way to make money at your expense, they will take it and you should always anticipate and move to counter it.

**Racerguy180**

Spectral Ceramite wrote:

Re-casters are criminals btw, just in-case are deluded into thinking games get made for free.

This is exactly how I feel, just like a fake coach handbag or knockoff air Jordans its cheating and if you feel the need to support the black market be my guest but go mother flock yourself.

**Spectral Ceramite**

Wyzilla wrote:
Spectral Ceramite wrote:
Wyzilla wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:
vaklor4 wrote:
Tbh im a bit of a cheap skate to begin with, so I might just go recasting just to save a buck. Heck, I was probably gonna go recasting to begin with if the quality is good. I've never been one for customer loyalty when it comes to hobby stuff.

But all for piracy? Not really customer loyalty - that is not buy from competitors. While I wouldn't criticism someone for recasting OOP stuff, recasting currently on sale items is directly stealing. This is a non essential item, not a loaf of bread.

It's just pure capitalism. If FW/GW want to stay in business then they need to competitively price their models so as to stay in business. And when they rise too high people will simply flock to recasters due to the obscenely low prices they offer. It's just the result of their actions, and results they should anticipate like any good businessman seeking to achieve long term profits. The issue here is that GW/FW for some idiot reason is once more suffering from the delusion that short term profits are stable when, if anything, they weaken the company in the long term game as customer loyalty wavers. You literally can't stop recasting from being a thing and thus must take it into consideration with any price hike.

They should take that into their price mark up strategy (100% agree), I also think the prices are a bit high. But the fact that people will flock to criminals (re-casters etc) is a bit of a stretch. They are probably focusing on the British market and everything else is a bonus (cause new factory in the States will maybe see reduction of cost in the states soon too, to build up a market cause was "man was so expensive before, now is so cheap" mentality).

Re-casters are criminals btw, just in-case are deluded into thinking games get made for free.

Recasters aren't criminals

I think the IP laws say they are? Even if not, they are criminals to me so they can go jump. If I can't support a game I go without, I don't buy a product that supports some degenerate company.

Secondarly, I would think opening up a factory/supplier on your soil (or any country) promotes job opportunities (if not in manufacturing, in sales etc) is always a boon to your economy. I think in the long run they will reduce prices to North American customers (how can they not). So in the long run will only be golden.

**Stux**

Wyzilla wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:
vaklor4 wrote:
Tbh im a bit of a cheap skate to begin with, so I might just go recasting just to save a buck. Heck, I was probably gonna go recasting to begin with if the quality is good. I've never been one for customer loyalty when it comes to hobby stuff.

But all for piracy? Not really customer loyalty - that is not buy from competitors. While I wouldn't criticism someone for recasting OOP stuff, recasting currently on sale items is directly stealing. This is a non essential item, not a loaf of bread.

It's just pure capitalism. If FW/GW want to stay in business then they need to competitively price their models so as to stay in business. And when they rise too high people will simply flock to recasters due to the obscenely low prices they offer. It's just the result of their actions, and results they should anticipate like any good businessman seeking to achieve long term profits. The issue here is that GW/FW for some idiot reason is once more suffering from the delusion that short term profits are stable when, if anything, they weaken the company in the long term game as customer loyalty wavers. You literally can't stop recasting from being a thing and thus must take it into consideration with any price hike.

Relying on criminals is not 'pure capitalism'.

Pure capitalism would be simply not buying a product if it's too expensive for you, or buying someone else's legitimate product (play Warmachine or Malifaux or what have you).

These miniatures are the intellectual property of GW, and it is their right to exclusively sell them for whatever price they decide. THAT is capitalism. It should protect the IP of businesses or creatives everywhere would be totally screwed.