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Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Mississippi

 Hawky wrote:
Has anyone addressed the invulnerable save bloat? I kinda forgot.
(Invulnerable saves on already though models that go as high as 3+, making the unit pain in the arse to kill)


With the new AP system they have to up invul saves, because armour saves mean virtually nothing nowadays. Just look at the entire Space Marine line. They pay a crap ton of points for virtually the same save as a guardsman.
   
Made in be
Courageous Beastmaster





The problem there is in Gw overcosting durability/ undercosting firepower.




 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut







Mr.Church13 wrote:
 Hawky wrote:
Has anyone addressed the invulnerable save bloat? I kinda forgot.
(Invulnerable saves on already though models that go as high as 3+, making the unit pain in the arse to kill)


With the new AP system they have to up invul saves, because armour saves mean virtually nothing nowadays. Just look at the entire Space Marine line. They pay a crap ton of points for virtually the same save as a guardsman.

I do like the smell of hyperbole in the afternoon...

2019 Plog - Dysartes Twitches - 2019 Output

My Twitch stream - going live at 7pm GMT Tuesday & Thursday, 12pm Sunday (work permitting).

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Dysartes wrote:
Mr.Church13 wrote:
 Hawky wrote:
Has anyone addressed the invulnerable save bloat? I kinda forgot.
(Invulnerable saves on already though models that go as high as 3+, making the unit pain in the arse to kill)


With the new AP system they have to up invul saves, because armour saves mean virtually nothing nowadays. Just look at the entire Space Marine line. They pay a crap ton of points for virtually the same save as a guardsman.

I do like the smell of hyperbole in the afternoon...


Indeed, but he isn't wrong on the core issue. I've beat this horse till it's dead but 8th edition was sold as a more model removing edition. Aka, all about the dakka. More death. Structurally though they got there by rendering durability almost negligible, in the conventional sense. So badly did they do this that they were forced to bolt on all kinds of nonsense to counter it. It ends up clunky.

No saves against mortal wounds, except, this not save save and this randomly named not save after save save.

Also this is probably he cheesiest edition of 40k to date. We all thought the 7th ed combos and crazy stuff like super friends lists and worse was bad.. Then 8th came in and said.. naww hold my beer and watch this. CHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESE.

Worse it's got holes in it and is stinky cheese. People have exploited every gigantic hole GW tossed into this pile. In fact I think the focus on Nurgle this edition rotted their brains because this is one rotting heap of rules.

Never before were things "unhitable" now you can cheese it and make a Space Marine an Ork. Make Orks and Guardsmen unable to hit in Range and Melee! Yes and re-roll those re-rolls of re-rolls because saves of saves of saves not saves are awesome.

I mean the Dakka-Ception is Three layers deep on models now. All the new vehicles are ridiculous gun platforms. We heard you like dakka so we put some dakka on your dakka and then dakka in your dakka so your Knight is now a Dakka Knigh because knights needed more dakka for their dakka.

Least we not forget "death blossom mode" is on every vehicle as that Land Raider pirouettes on one track like a fine ballerina firing lascannons from opposite sides of itself at the same target. Its like magic. Oh and you cannot fall back and fire unless we say so because we have all these exceptions to hard rules and then exceptions to the exceptions because we can't keep anything straight and Whose Line is it Anyways.. the game where the rules don't make any sense and the points mean nothing.

I know they were creeping that direction and who didn't read the How to Sell New Eldar Jetbikes when they broke the hard-fast rules of two decades and made them 3/3 heavy weapon platforms w/o the usual price boost. The Dakka Writing was on the Wall. Dakka Sells models.

So lets Dakka Knight and Rotor Cannon happily along with our Deathblossom spinning magical tanks of whirling death spraying while we stack more and more dice into every time saving roll.. and reroll.. and not save save and not save save re-roll because look at all that time savings! Wow.. much time saving...

8th Edition 40k.. when jumping the shark and nuking the fridge is for posers and n00bs.


There is so much nonsense that the brain spins. The one Race who literally should have dakka stacked on dakka, the Orks, still have vehicles with ONE weapon on them. ONE. These are Orks. They will duct-tape a gretchin and something that shoots onto every available surface and forget about ammo because they will believe it never runs out so it won't. yet the buggies... one weapon.. koptas.. one weapon.. trakks one weapon. Derrrrrh. ORKS, they'll bolt on a big shoota even if it means hanging their mate by one toe so he can shoot it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/24 17:42:13


Consummate 8th Edition Hater.  
   
Made in us
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot




Hanoi, Vietnam.

meatybtz wrote:
Spoiler:
 Dysartes wrote:
Mr.Church13 wrote:
 Hawky wrote:
Has anyone addressed the invulnerable save bloat? I kinda forgot.
(Invulnerable saves on already though models that go as high as 3+, making the unit pain in the arse to kill)


With the new AP system they have to up invul saves, because armour saves mean virtually nothing nowadays. Just look at the entire Space Marine line. They pay a crap ton of points for virtually the same save as a guardsman.

I do like the smell of hyperbole in the afternoon...


Indeed, but he isn't wrong on the core issue. I've beat this horse till it's dead but 8th edition was sold as a more model removing edition. Aka, all about the dakka. More death. Structurally though they got there by rendering durability almost negligible, in the conventional sense. So badly did they do this that they were forced to bolt on all kinds of nonsense to counter it. It ends up clunky.

No saves against mortal wounds, except, this not save save and this randomly named not save after save save.

Also this is probably he cheesiest edition of 40k to date. We all thought the 7th ed combos and crazy stuff like super friends lists and worse was bad.. Then 8th came in and said.. naww hold my beer and watch this. CHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESE.

Worse it's got holes in it and is stinky cheese. People have exploited every gigantic hole GW tossed into this pile. In fact I think the focus on Nurgle this edition rotted their brains because this is one rotting heap of rules.

Never before were things "unhitable" now you can cheese it and make a Space Marine an Ork. Make Orks and Guardsmen unable to hit in Range and Melee! Yes and re-roll those re-rolls of re-rolls because saves of saves of saves not saves are awesome.

I mean the Dakka-Ception is Three layers deep on models now. All the new vehicles are ridiculous gun platforms. We heard you like dakka so we put some dakka on your dakka and then dakka in your dakka so your Knight is now a Dakka Knigh because knights needed more dakka for their dakka.

Least we not forget "death blossom mode" is on every vehicle as that Land Raider pirouettes on one track like a fine ballerina firing lascannons from opposite sides of itself at the same target. Its like magic. Oh and you cannot fall back and fire unless we say so because we have all these exceptions to hard rules and then exceptions to the exceptions because we can't keep anything straight and Whose Line is it Anyways.. the game where the rules don't make any sense and the points mean nothing.

I know they were creeping that direction and who didn't read the How to Sell New Eldar Jetbikes when they broke the hard-fast rules of two decades and made them 3/3 heavy weapon platforms w/o the usual price boost. The Dakka Writing was on the Wall. Dakka Sells models.

So lets Dakka Knight and Rotor Cannon happily along with our Deathblossom spinning magical tanks of whirling death spraying while we stack more and more dice into every time saving roll.. and reroll.. and not save save and not save save re-roll because look at all that time savings! Wow.. much time saving...

8th Edition 40k.. when jumping the shark and nuking the fridge is for posers and n00bs.


There is so much nonsense that the brain spins. The one Race who literally should have dakka stacked on dakka, the Orks, still have vehicles with ONE weapon on them. ONE. These are Orks. They will duct-tape a gretchin and something that shoots onto every available surface and forget about ammo because they will believe it never runs out so it won't. yet the buggies... one weapon.. koptas.. one weapon.. trakks one weapon. Derrrrrh. ORKS, they'll bolt on a big shoota even if it means hanging their mate by one toe so he can shoot it.


I prefer that firing arcs are gone. Sure the immersion suffers a bit, but it improves the flow of the game. But what's this about triple save rolls? I can only think of saving rolls and ignore damage rolls. What's the third?
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Ginjitzu wrote:
meatybtz wrote:
Spoiler:
 Dysartes wrote:
Mr.Church13 wrote:
 Hawky wrote:
Has anyone addressed the invulnerable save bloat? I kinda forgot.
(Invulnerable saves on already though models that go as high as 3+, making the unit pain in the arse to kill)


With the new AP system they have to up invul saves, because armour saves mean virtually nothing nowadays. Just look at the entire Space Marine line. They pay a crap ton of points for virtually the same save as a guardsman.

I do like the smell of hyperbole in the afternoon...


Indeed, but he isn't wrong on the core issue. I've beat this horse till it's dead but 8th edition was sold as a more model removing edition. Aka, all about the dakka. More death. Structurally though they got there by rendering durability almost negligible, in the conventional sense. So badly did they do this that they were forced to bolt on all kinds of nonsense to counter it. It ends up clunky.

No saves against mortal wounds, except, this not save save and this randomly named not save after save save.

Also this is probably he cheesiest edition of 40k to date. We all thought the 7th ed combos and crazy stuff like super friends lists and worse was bad.. Then 8th came in and said.. naww hold my beer and watch this. CHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESE.

Worse it's got holes in it and is stinky cheese. People have exploited every gigantic hole GW tossed into this pile. In fact I think the focus on Nurgle this edition rotted their brains because this is one rotting heap of rules.

Never before were things "unhitable" now you can cheese it and make a Space Marine an Ork. Make Orks and Guardsmen unable to hit in Range and Melee! Yes and re-roll those re-rolls of re-rolls because saves of saves of saves not saves are awesome.

I mean the Dakka-Ception is Three layers deep on models now. All the new vehicles are ridiculous gun platforms. We heard you like dakka so we put some dakka on your dakka and then dakka in your dakka so your Knight is now a Dakka Knigh because knights needed more dakka for their dakka.

Least we not forget "death blossom mode" is on every vehicle as that Land Raider pirouettes on one track like a fine ballerina firing lascannons from opposite sides of itself at the same target. Its like magic. Oh and you cannot fall back and fire unless we say so because we have all these exceptions to hard rules and then exceptions to the exceptions because we can't keep anything straight and Whose Line is it Anyways.. the game where the rules don't make any sense and the points mean nothing.

I know they were creeping that direction and who didn't read the How to Sell New Eldar Jetbikes when they broke the hard-fast rules of two decades and made them 3/3 heavy weapon platforms w/o the usual price boost. The Dakka Writing was on the Wall. Dakka Sells models.

So lets Dakka Knight and Rotor Cannon happily along with our Deathblossom spinning magical tanks of whirling death spraying while we stack more and more dice into every time saving roll.. and reroll.. and not save save and not save save re-roll because look at all that time savings! Wow.. much time saving...

8th Edition 40k.. when jumping the shark and nuking the fridge is for posers and n00bs.


There is so much nonsense that the brain spins. The one Race who literally should have dakka stacked on dakka, the Orks, still have vehicles with ONE weapon on them. ONE. These are Orks. They will duct-tape a gretchin and something that shoots onto every available surface and forget about ammo because they will believe it never runs out so it won't. yet the buggies... one weapon.. koptas.. one weapon.. trakks one weapon. Derrrrrh. ORKS, they'll bolt on a big shoota even if it means hanging their mate by one toe so he can shoot it.


I prefer that firing arcs are gone. Sure the immersion suffers a bit, but it improves the flow of the game. But what's this about triple save rolls? I can only think of saving rolls and ignore damage rolls. What's the third?

Its not really third, more like there are three mechanics for damage resistance (if you will), though several go by different names they are the same mechanic. Those three are: armor/invuln, wound dice reduction (from a D3, or D6 wound weapon down to 1 wound), and what we call Feel No Pain or direct wound mitigation. The problem arises when you have them stacked (which can happen) and then you cheese it for re-rolls.

They claimed to save time and dice rolls but instead you are rolling more dice and there are certainly more re-rolls in this edition than any previous edition. It's out of hand really.

As for Firing Arc, well it was part and parcel of the game designed to prevent dominance of "super weapons" and everything else sucks (which we have today). Sure you could take a super vehicle. It will likely only have 3 weapon systems if not super heavy, though some had 4. But you can't shoo them all at once target unless facing it. Players had to pay attention to facing, that is tactics, but more than anything it was "heavy weapon control". Which has always been a thing since RT. Sure you can have an assault cannon but it might blow up or jam. Your heavy bolter could fire up to 6 shots (yes six, 2D3, or 2xFF dice) but that was now two times the chances to roll a jam which would put the Heavy weapon out of action for a full turn (or explode and kill the bearer). Artillery was controlled by the now defunct artillery dice which always gave you a chance for a bad ending.

The change, like all changes in the game really, were to sell more models. The higher priced "uber models" and kits are priced more than the "troops" kits. In order to make them sufficiently attractive you take away the negatives. But over time your game becomes LasCannonHammer or whatever.

I liked firing arcs because it made a player choose, decide, turn to face all guns on target but then your rear armored posterior is being waggled in the breeze or... take the reduced firepower for more protection.

But it is what it is, it's just with each codex or new release the game keeps getting more ridiculous. As for scale creep it is more in line with AoS where they moved players more and more to smaller number larger models rather than the old WHFB of blocks of troopers. Just look at the latest Chaos Releases and you see guys riding big things so 40K is headed towards what amounts to an "elite battle" or a "horde battle" for the two formations. No real balance or variation. You either spam all you can or ride giant beasts and models into battle in super elite high wound models with saves on top of saves with re-rolls because you painted it blue (death skulls "luck" rule).

Mind you I am not all salty. I frankly laughed my butt off when they released the new Chaos Havocs and only put one of the MUST HAVE weapons in the box. I laughed when people started buying multiple boxes and said, well played GW. Esp because a nerf is most certainly incoming. But they will wait until all the "must have its" have bough enough (by tracking sales rates). So I get to laugh my butt off again when it gets nerfed and people complain after having spent extra money to be "uber". I recall when people complained about Devestators and only having 2 grav cannons when devs=gravcannon was a thing. GW learned from that and made sure to increase sales by including only ONE of the uber, must have weapon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/25 15:47:04


Consummate 8th Edition Hater.  
   
 
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