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Mississippi

I think the “painted mini” statement should just be dropped completely and the rest of that line should read “Ensure your models are easily identifiable for what they represent.”

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 Dysartes wrote:
Having just stuck my nose in the AOS General Discussion board, I do find it interesting that there's no topic regarding this "Player's Code" at all over there - and yet there are seven fairly heated pages over here...


It was in the AoS N&R thread, actually.

AoS General has its own gatekeepers that will glom onto any discussion and wear it down on other issues.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 20:52:04


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 Stormonu wrote:
I think the “painted mini” statement should just be dropped completely and the rest of that line should read “Ensure your models are easily identifiable for what they represent.”
That seems like a good idea.

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
This is about the fully painted thing, isn’t it?

I’m a self identifying Lazy Sod. I try to get my armies painted, but motivation is low. By all means, claim your VP from me.

But if I’m using one of my painted armies? Not sure I’d bother claiming it, because it’s not nice to judge others. Guess it depends largely on whether you take the piss as an opponent. If you’re WAAC, I’ll meet you every step of the way and press every advantage I can.


basicly the code mentions asking your opponent if he's cool with your using unpainted mini's because yes some people aren't. some people take this aknowlegement of reality and enchouragment to discuss it between two mature consenting adults as being an attack on their personal enjoyment of the hobby

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BrianDavion wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
This is about the fully painted thing, isn’t it?

I’m a self identifying Lazy Sod. I try to get my armies painted, but motivation is low. By all means, claim your VP from me.

But if I’m using one of my painted armies? Not sure I’d bother claiming it, because it’s not nice to judge others. Guess it depends largely on whether you take the piss as an opponent. If you’re WAAC, I’ll meet you every step of the way and press every advantage I can.


basicly the code mentions asking your opponent if he's cool with your using unpainted mini's because yes some people aren't. some people take this aknowlegement of reality and enchouragment to discuss it between two mature consenting adults as being an attack on their personal enjoyment of the hobby
There's a difference in presentation.

If it was said as "Make sure you and your opponent are on the same page with how to enjoy the game," that'd cover people not wanting to play with unpainted models without casting aspersion on anyone. But it's not phrased that way.

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Honestly, the most surprising thing about it to me is that it even acknowledges the existence of proxying as a thing that could ever be ok. Very unlike GW's normal line.
   
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yukishiro1 wrote:
Honestly, the most surprising thing about it to me is that it even acknowledges the existence of proxying as a thing that could ever be ok. Very unlike GW's normal line.


But lots of people proxy with GW models, classic examples being the orc shamen being used as a weird boy, or the old witch Hunter model as an inquisitor etc etc.

 
   
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yukishiro1 wrote:
Honestly, the most surprising thing about it to me is that it even acknowledges the existence of proxying as a thing that could ever be ok. Very unlike GW's normal line.


Happens all the time (at least in my group). I always ask if it's cool if I use Sanguinius from 30k to represent the Sanguinor. I use leman Russ and Vulkan to represent warlords for my 40k armies all the time if my opponent lets me. The models are sweet looking. However, they need to agree to it, because while much bigger models, and thus easier to shoot, they are on bigger bases typically than the model they're standing in for, and there are points where that can be an advantage for me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 14:09:51


 
   
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Mississippi

yukishiro1 wrote:
Honestly, the most surprising thing about it to me is that it even acknowledges the existence of proxying as a thing that could ever be ok. Very unlike GW's normal line.


GW’s idea of proxying is using GW bits in new and innovate ways - NOT using 3rd party bits or models. They’d still ding you if they could for using non-GW product, but that’d raise a worse firestorm than discussing unpainted models.

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 ClockworkZion wrote:
The player's code:


Honestly I rather like it (especially the part of reminding your opponent about rules your opponent forgot), but I'm all for hearing other opinions on if we should adopt this even if 40k doesn't adopt this in the rule book.


This hobby if we're being honest does attract a fair few people who aren't conventionally or well socialised. May not be a bad idea to put something like this in a document like a ruleset which is viewed as 'official' to give them a helpful nudge. Plenty of sketchy try hards who use plastic toy soldiers as a way of having some control in their lives at any cost for whatever reason, but plenty more just need to meet some basic expectations they're unknowingly falling short of. Wouldn't hurt to show them how.
   
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No

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Well, that's a really useful contribution to the discussion - care to share with the class why not, or which elements you would object to from the document?

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
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Melbourne .au

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

Is it not kosher to complain about bad luck? I mean, if you do it excessively I'm sure it gets annoying (I know I'm guilty of it). But so is excessive bad luck
I try to keep it more as "remarking" than complaining (really, when the luck is skewed one way or the other for me or my opponent). I mean, it's a dice game, that can and will be the make or break.
ETA: Otherwise, this is really good, if obvious at times.


I read it as much more "I would have beaten you if my dice weren't to unlucky" /"You just got lucky with dice rolls!" than "feth, I can't roll anything but ones today lol" / "wow can I buy your dice?"

   
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A lot of people (seemingly more who identify as gamers than not) need rules writing down before they will obey them. This does that, and levels the playing field.
It also empowers those people who are usually reluctant to point them out, since there is something to point at.

So, 40k should certainly have this, too.

If a group agrees to refer to these rules as "Pffft, yeah, them", everyone can move on and game. But then, everyone in the group knows where they stand.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/23 08:54:32


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BrianDavion 799052 11152250 wrote:
basicly the code mentions asking your opponent if he's cool with your using unpainted mini's because yes some people aren't. some people take this aknowlegement of reality and enchouragment to discuss it between two mature consenting adults as being an attack on their personal enjoyment of the hobby


Only A this doesn't work so well with strangers. B a large chunk of the player base does not consisted of sofisticated people in their mid 30s, there is in fact a large number of people who are not adults. C Not every culture or even generation thinks that not using every arsenal in your disposal to win is not okey. By virtue of which creating a rule set based on vogue terms and people being "nice" breaks the game very fast. If GW wants to implement such a rule set, and for it to work as something else then gate keeping and people being donkey-caves to each other, then they should produce a code of conduct rule set just like Wizards has for MtG. When the rules are clear, everyone knows what is okey and what is not okey to say and do , then even if someone does like the rules, then everything is easy to manage. And if someone doesn't want to follow the rules, they can just not play the game, painting and reading books would still be open to them as some part of the hobby.

Also parts of the rule set do not account for stuff like people having real psychological problems or understanding what is and what isn't socially acceptable, especially when it changes on a person per person basis. Being affected by aspergers or being autistic should not be a free ticket to be an donkey-cave to everyone else, but when you do not get non verbal communication that well, it is much easier to fit in, when you have a writen set of rules saying what is not okey. Then at least you have stuff to fall back on to, when you don't know what to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Honestly, the most surprising thing about it to me is that it even acknowledges the existence of proxying as a thing that could ever be ok. Very unlike GW's normal line.


They kind of a have to, when companies in eastern europe produce nicer and more dynamic model options for stuff like orks and elder, there is a threeshold after which the number of models in the market is big enough, they can't just ignore the fact they exist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Skinnereal wrote:
A lot of people (seemingly more who identify as gamers than not) need rules writing down before they will obey them.


No it doesn't. Not without a code of conduct. If I were to follow what people think about other people in the western world, then being offensive can be as a simple thing as existing, and that is enough to be breaking the rules. When there is no definition of what is allowed and what isn't. Then some of the rules may as well be worded, as be nice. And who the hell knows what that means , considering how many different people in different cultures play the game. MtG has no such problems, because they do have the code. And it doesn't matter if you play the game in UK, Brasil or Taiwan , the rules are always the same. Plus they give you an explanation what is the reaction taken to someone breaking specific rules. What happens if the other person is considered by the other to be offensive? Those the game end, does some sort of third party is suppose to decide, if something offensive really happened, or are people suppose to fix it on their own, and if so how. What is the difference between someone doing something offensive knowingly and not knowingly? And who is suppose to decide that. There is like a milion and one things to know under such a rule set, that the few points do not help to deal with any way. And for people who play with friends the rule set doesn't matter, because they do not need it to fix stuff in their games, because they can just call back on the groups social norms, friendships etc. It is the moment when two strangers or people that don't really like each other play, that is the important thing. For those the rule set, the way it exists now, all it does is just generate more conflict, and on top of it all , it gives bad people a great option to claim to be offended or a model or player breaking this or that rule, just to get an edge in a game. Specially when they know the chance of playing again vs each other is very low.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/23 10:05:17


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Having now read the entire thread... wow. I'm equal parts amused and just ...tired. I mean, it's like fething Twitter in some parts of this thread, and we all know how much of a gak hole cesspool twitter is!

Loving the contrarians as well. That "bitter ex" thing never really does stop, does it? Always love to hear about how very hatefully anti-consumer GW is from angry people who still buy their products and.or support them by playing their games.... I can see the WAAC come out in some people who think "remind opponent of rules" means they have to coach their opponent on every move rather than essentially "hey, is that unit going to shoot this turn?" - but I guess that's the WAAC RAW mentality over intent and generally not being a dick.

"Don't be offensive" would pretty much be to speak and act like you would at work or in class with a stranger rather than with your close friends where you say gak that others who don't know you and your injokes/etc might find offensive. I swear like a trooper at home, but manage to not do so at work - except occasionally with those I work most closely with who I'm close and comfortable with. A good rule of thumb is "if in doubt, maybe don't say to your opponent who you met 15 minutes ago that you think {insert person here} is a dumb witch". Getsme through most work days.

Painting? Well, if you have an unpainted unit you want to try out it doesn't hurt to ask. If your whole army is unpainted I might play you once, or.... I might not. It depends on who you are, why they're unpainted and how you're behaving. MY enjoyement of the game is very much as a visual, aesthetic experience. Much more than winning. I'm under no obligation to spend 4 hours doing something for your enjoyment if I'm not also enjoying myself, after all. if I set up a game with someone, I'd expect them to tell me beforehand that their army is completely unpainted as a courtesy. I've played many games over the years watching opponents' units go from literally bought off a shelf and blu-tac'ed together and placed on a table to primed, to basecoated to fully painted, so I'm not exactly the Soup Nazi, but no. I don't really want to set aside a day worth of time to travel and spend the afternoon to play your unpainted grey horde that is and will remain unpainted on principle. Or because the resale value of it tanks if you paint them.

Funny thing is I think most people on this thread would probably be fine to play against. Not all, by any means - but most of them. I think people just enjoy a good internet fight and some like being the rebellious contrarian or any chance to complain about GW!

   
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Karol wrote:
BrianDavion 799052 11152250 wrote:
basicly the code mentions asking your opponent if he's cool with your using unpainted mini's because yes some people aren't. some people take this aknowlegement of reality and enchouragment to discuss it between two mature consenting adults as being an attack on their personal enjoyment of the hobby


Only A this doesn't work so well with strangers. B a large chunk of the player base does not consisted of sofisticated people in their mid 30s, there is in fact a large number of people who are not adults. C Not every culture or even generation thinks that not using every arsenal in your disposal to win is not okey. By virtue of which creating a rule set based on vogue terms and people being "nice" breaks the game very fast. If GW wants to implement such a rule set, and for it to work as something else then gate keeping and people being donkey-caves to each other, then they should produce a code of conduct rule set just like Wizards has for MtG. When the rules are clear, everyone knows what is okey and what is not okey to say and do , then even if someone does like the rules, then everything is easy to manage. And if someone doesn't want to follow the rules, they can just not play the game, painting and reading books would still be open to them as some part of the hobby.

Also parts of the rule set do not account for stuff like people having real psychological problems or understanding what is and what isn't socially acceptable, especially when it changes on a person per person basis. Being affected by aspergers or being autistic should not be a free ticket to be an donkey-cave to everyone else, but when you do not get non verbal communication that well, it is much easier to fit in, when you have a writen set of rules saying what is not okey. Then at least you have stuff to fall back on to, when you don't know what to do.


.


ok, A: it is ABS fething LOTELY something that works perfectly well with strangers. I've done it. It ABSO-fething-LOTELY works fine with strangers to say "hey wanna sit down for a game? Cool, my models aren't painted, not an issue is it?"

B: if you're capable of putting the kind of money and effort required for a game like 40k, you're not a 6 year old. and even if they where, well it's a 6 year old who needs this kind of thing spelled out to them

C: this code of conduct doesn't impact any of that. unless your idea of "winning" consists of "no you can't use your models against me cause they're unpainted! ha I win by default" (note stuff like this should be decided by the tourny in a tourny setting, this is NOT tourny rules. this is "sitting down with a guy at your local gaming club" rules)

And please do NOT. DO NOT bring up autism Karol, because guess what...
I have Asperger's and lemme tell you, as someone with Aspergers? I LIKE having some rules for ettiquite in a new enviroment on hand. it makes my life a lot easier.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/23 11:20:33


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Okey, but this means the rules of the game are being governed by how you like or dislike someone on a personal level. If the same joke or word is said by a friend, you will be okey with it, but if a stranger says it, you would be not.

If sports worked like that, then games would be more kin to how hooligan fights look like, then the participation in a noble art. A game of w40k should not be decided, how or even if it happens, by the fact if someone is liked or not liked. It practicaly eliminates anyone from playing the game who has not friends. Worse this is made after 8 editions where no such rules existed, and just like the painting one GW implemented in 9th, it is a huge block for a lot of people.

Again GW can do what ever they want with their games, they are theirs not the players. But if they want to put forth stuff like the AoS "rules", then they can do it without a code of conduct book.

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BrianDavion wrote:
ok, A: it is ABSFUCKING LOTELY something that works perfectly well with strangers. I've done it. It ABSO-fething-LOTELY works fine with strangers to say "hey wanna sit down for a game? Cool, my models aren't painted, not an issue is it?"


I think the issue people are having with this is not having to talk about unpainted models, but having to ask for permission.

Especially from my time when most of my games were in various stores around, I could see some of the people I experienced looking at the enemy army and just denying unpainted models to be played to have a better shot at winning.

Same thing happened for named characters and FW when they were house-ruled as permission only. The same people who would refuse permission if a powerful character like Eldrad or Thrakka was on the other side, would totally run plenty of named characters themselves when the opponent didn't have any.

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During competitive play, I've seem players ''forgetting'' the ''code''.
Having a netiquette doesn't prevent players to behave accordingly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/23 11:31:59


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Dysartes wrote:

Well, that's a really useful contribution to the discussion - care to share with the class why not, or which elements you would object to from the document?


Banzaimash wrote:This hobby if we're being honest does attract a fair few people who aren't conventionally or well socialised.


¯\_(ツ)_/¯
   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
This is about the fully painted thing, isn’t it?

I’m a self identifying Lazy Sod. I try to get my armies painted, but motivation is low. By all means, claim your VP from me.

But if I’m using one of my painted armies? Not sure I’d bother claiming it, because it’s not nice to judge others. Guess it depends largely on whether you take the piss as an opponent. If you’re WAAC, I’ll meet you every step of the way and press every advantage I can.


So you feel bad claiming secondaries?

It's part of core rules. That's the way GW wants you to play. You are expected to give 10 pts for painted army. Don't like it? Complain to GW. Meanwhile score the 10 pts.

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tneva82 wrote:
It's part of core rules. That's the way GW wants you to play. You are expected to give 10 pts for painted army. Don't like it? Complain to GW. Meanwhile score the 10 pts.


The rules don't give VP for painted armies. They give VP for covering your model in paint and putting texture on bases.

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This whole painted army thing has really exploded lately - or maybe I'm just blurring things together.

Back in the day, I think it was more normal to paint your army, and people had a common understanding that if you had a new army / were eager to get a new unit on the board / whatever that you'd play with unpainted stuff for a bit, but there generally was an expectation that it'd be painted someday.

But maybe it's different communities or rose-tinted glasses. These days it seems like people insist that they have a right to play with bare plastic regardless of how their opponent enjoys it or not.
   
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 Jidmah wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
It's part of core rules. That's the way GW wants you to play. You are expected to give 10 pts for painted army. Don't like it? Complain to GW. Meanwhile score the 10 pts.


The rules don't give VP for painted armies. They give VP for covering your model in paint and putting texture on bases.

And that is where the problems start. Because you may have taken all 5 of your identical squads and painted the bases in orange, blue, green, yellow and red, for ease of use and spoting what is what. So both you and your opponent don't mix up your librarian or apothecary with a regular termintor. And then get informed that this very action made your army unpainted. Because an all orange base with clear bumps in it somehow is not a texture. Or how next time you notice your opponent has chipped paint on his models, call it out, and that somehow does not count as not being painted somehow, even when there is litteraly no paint on parts of the model. Better yet, you are suddenly the donkey-cave in this situation.

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BrianDavion wrote:
And please do NOT. DO NOT bring up autism Karol, because guess what...
I have Asperger's and lemme tell you, as someone with Aspergers? I LIKE having some rules for ettiquite in a new enviroment on hand. it makes my life a lot easier.
Exactly this. I didn't want to point it out by naming specifics, but this is why I said what I did.

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BrianDavion 799052 11156103 wrote:
ok, A: it is ABS fething LOTELY something that works perfectly well with strangers. I've done it. It ABSO-fething-LOTELY works fine with strangers to say "hey wanna sit down for a game? Cool, my models aren't painted, not an issue is it?"

Stranger says no, because it gives him an edge in the game. Now what? Every new player loses his first 6 months of playing, unless they have an army that can balance a 10VP handicap.

B: if you're capable of putting the kind of money and effort required for a game like 40k, you're not a 6 year old. and even if they where, well it's a 6 year old who needs this kind of thing spelled out to them

Maybe in Canada. Also I like how you suddenly turned everyone who isn't 35, in to a 6 year old. Classy.



C: this code of conduct doesn't impact any of that. unless your idea of "winning" consists of "no you can't use your models against me cause they're unpainted! ha I win by default" (note stuff like this should be decided by the tourny in a tourny setting, this is NOT tourny rules. this is "sitting down with a guy at your local gaming club" rules)

This code of conduct GW show is either impact nothing, in which case it doesn't matter that it exists. Because people are playing in a setting where with or without it, people deal with those problem. Or it affects absolutly everything, because I can tell you that if someone can use something to their adventage , no matter how small and insignificant they are, they will do it. And I really don't need extra problems with the game. I already have enough. I don't need to keep thinking durning the game if I am possibly not looking in an offending way at my opponent. Or asking them questions, even regarding the game which , he can then call offending, and because he has a higher social standing and more friends in the store, I would be at a disadvantage. It would probably make me stop wanting to play, as I don't like to think about other things the the game , while playing the game.


And please do NOT. DO NOT bring up autism Karol, because guess what...
I have Asperger's and lemme tell you, as someone with Aspergers? I LIKE having some rules for ettiquite in a new enviroment on hand. it makes my life a lot easier.

So do I , but I assume your expiriance is somehow more accurate and more important then my? And what kind of a rules of ettiguite are those, don't be offensive. That says nothing. And today everything can be offensive. I can't keep track of everything AND play the game at the same time. If GW wants to have a rule set for their games like that, they should first, and I am writing this for like 3ed time, should first write a book of conduct first . Just the way WotC has for MtG. You have clear stuff there, what you can do , when , what you do when a rules query happens, different rules for different levels of competition, like in sports. Everything has structure and you know how it works, how to act , when and why. If everything go smooth you don't even have to talk to the opponent, because the procedures do it for you. Heck there is even a code of conduct for judges what they can and can not wear etc.
GW should do something like that, and not create more problems and more ways for people to screw others over.

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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
This whole painted army thing has really exploded lately - or maybe I'm just blurring things together.

Back in the day, I think it was more normal to paint your army, and people had a common understanding that if you had a new army / were eager to get a new unit on the board / whatever that you'd play with unpainted stuff for a bit, but there generally was an expectation that it'd be painted someday.

But maybe it's different communities or rose-tinted glasses. These days it seems like people insist that they have a right to play with bare plastic regardless of how their opponent enjoys it or not.


Always working on the "someday" part.
Yes, the ideal is a fully painted army....
But painting is something that proceeds at my own slow pace. Whether you like that pace or not is of no concern to me & won't change how fast it gets done.

Now if someone really wants to be an arse to me about it though....
I've got no problem throwing some sand on the bases, spraying stuff in two random colors, painting the weapons, giving it all a wash & saying DONE.
It'll look like but it'll be fully painted. I can do about 3k pts worth (of Skaven) in an hour.
In the end (until I get around to painting them)? Naked metal/plastic, primed, or gakky two-tone + wash... It's all the same to {me} - the models needed primed/base coated anyways....


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I genuinely don't understand how some people get offended when reminded that part of this game is the visual spectacle of painted miniatures on a nice looking board, and that's the experience that most players are looking for.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

I think part of the rise of unpainted armies is the increased popularity of the game. More 'casual' players are joining that don't want to invest the time. Also, a lot of people that used to paint their minis are getting old. That means they've got more money to buy minis but less time to paint them.
Personally, when I scrapped together excess lunch money to buy one kit every 1-2 months I never even played with something that wasn't fully painted.
Now I can afford to buy whatever takes my fancy (granted I'm not inclined to impulsive buys so that is quite low) but various commitments mean I'm still looking at year long lead times between assembling and painting.
   
 
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