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I'm coming back to the hobby after a long absence and have decided to collect a Black Templars army. I love fielding models that are 100% WYSIWYG and I've read a little bit about the changes coming in 5th edition, so I want to have all my models set up as close to optimal for the new rules as possible. I haven't bought any models yet because I want to be sure I don't glue the wrong parts on.

I read the adivce of posters in previous BT threads and took some cues from those -- mostly stealing the idea of having 2 5 man lascannon squads for some armor penetration from the seemingly all-knowing Stelek. It seems these guys will be needed even more in 5th ed. when the rending assault cannons get toned down.

Let me know what you folks think.

Marshal - 150 pts
Pair of Lightning Claws
Iron Halo
Terminator Honours

Emperor's Champion - 110 pts
Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch

5 Sword Brethren Terminator Squad - 255 pts
2x Assault Cannon
Tank Hunter

5 Sword Brethren Terminator Squad - 255 pts
2x Assault Cannon
Tank Hunter

10 Crusader Squad Initiates - 270 pts
BP/CC
Power Weapon
10 Neophytes
BP/CC

10 Crusader Squad Initiates - 270 pts
BP/CC
Power Weapon
10 Neophytes
BP/CC

5 Crusader Squad Initiates - 95 pts
Lascannon

5 Crusader Squad Initiates - 95 pts
Lascannon

Total: 1500 pts

No comments? I'm sure there are a few things I could use guidance on.

I'd especially like some feedback on the gear:

The Power Weapons and Lightning Claws are there both because of the nerf coming to Power Fists in 5th ed. and because I think they fit the theme of Black Templars a little better. Is this a good way to go or will fists still be a much more viale option after the nerfs?

Should I find a way to incorporate Meltaguns into the large crusade squads? I like the idea of having more close combat attacks and saving the 10 points but I'm not sure how much the melta would add to the squads oomph.

Also, I'm not at all sure how to set up my lascannon squads. It probably won't make too much of a difference since I plan to leave them near the back of the field, preferably with high ground or cover to shoot tanks from, but I don't know if bolters or bp/ccw will benefit them more.

The marshal has a 3+/4+ right?
IMO if you are going to give him a great invulnerable save he should have a great armor save

You will find yourself failing 3+ more often than the 4+

Overall it looks pretty nasty but I would try to squeeze in a PF into the Initiate squads, maybe even swap out the marshall for a chaplain with cenobytes. join those to the big mobs and you will now have 2 almost fearless mobs (not sure if the champ makes em fearless) and the ability to close with your opponent faster.

In 5th, you'll be able to knock out vehicles that are serious CC threats with relative ease (that means dreads).

So the PF aren't necessary, most players I think will incorporate more shooting and leave the PF at home (except Orks, who don't have a PW on their nobs).

In all seriousness, when you are chasing vehicles with power fists, don't you realize something has gone terribly wrong? lol

I've been trying to find a way to take your advice and upgrade the armor save on my Marshal and I think I've settled on this:

Marshal - 160 pts
Pair of Lightning Claws
Terminator Armor
Iron Halo

Emperor's Champion - 110 pts
Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch

5 Sword Brethren Terminator Squad - 240 pts
2x Assault Cannon

5 Sword Brethren Terminator Squad - 240 pts
2x Assault Cannon

10 Crusader Squad Initiates - 280 pts
BP/CC
Meltagun
Power Weapon
10 Neophytes
BP/CC

10 Crusader Squad Initiates - 270 pts
BP/CC
Meltagun
Power Weapon
10 Neophytes
BP/CC

5 Crusader Squad Initiates - 95 pts
Bolter
Lascannon

5 Crusader Squad Initiates - 95 pts
Bolter
Lascannon

Total: 1500 pts

So, no more Tank Hunter for the Terminators and in return my Marshal improves to 2+/4+ and both big crusade squads get meltaguns.

I think it's a pretty good trade-off, hopefully you guys agree.

I'm aware the Marshal already was and is now even more-so a pretty expensive model. I've got mixed feelings on this one though. I really like the idea of having a beefy commander on the field giving orders and tearing enemies apart and a bare bones Castellan or a Chaplain doesn't quite fit that image. I'll definitely give the Chaplain more thought for the extra movement, but the leadership combined with theme and bad-assedness may win the decision for the Marshal.

If I do keep the Marshal I may drop the halo since 2+/4+ isn't that much better than 2+/5+ but I don't really see much to spend the points on and if he gets hammered by power weapons it would be nice to have.

I'm not sure I get why you did what you did.

You had 4 excellent anti-tank units.

For a slightly better CC character, you now have 2.

The character should either be a speed bump, a suicide unit, or backup for the templars.

Whichever way you cut it, you don't really need to boost the marshal's CC ability--not at the expense of tank hunters on the terminators, anyway.

Well, give it a whirl. I think you'll find you'd rather have the tank hunters in the end.

Stelek wrote:I'm not sure I get why you did what you did.

You had 4 excellent anti-tank units.

For a slightly better CC character, you now have 2.

The character should either be a speed bump, a suicide unit, or backup for the templars.

Whichever way you cut it, you don't really need to boost the marshal's CC ability--not at the expense of tank hunters on the terminators, anyway.

Well, give it a whirl. I think you'll find you'd rather have the tank hunters in the end.

Well, I was hoping having 2 meltas would mitigate the loss of Tank Hunter.

I guess not?

I'll try it both ways and see what I think.

Meltaguns are backup, not primary, anti-tank units; in a non-mobile unit.

If I do keep the Marshal I may drop the halo since 2+/4+ isn't that much better than 2+/5+ but I don't really see much to spend the points on and if he gets hammered by power weapons it would be nice to have.

I think you'll have to drop the halo. I dunno about Black Templars but for nilla Space Marines the Iron Halo cannot be taken with Terminator armor. It does not have a t next to it. Don't own BT codex though so perhaps they can.

Regardless of whether they can or not (I think winterman is right, though I haven't seen a BT codex in a while), taking the Halo would be a bad idea when you've already got Termie armour. A 5+ is good enough, and let's face it, a Marshal isn't really such a CC badass that he's worth spending so many points to protect.

I think PFs will still be preferable to PWs in the Crusader squads. You still need something to deal with nasty things like DPs and Flyrants. Losing that one attack sucks, but them's the breaks. For the price difference, it's still a good deal.

You're right about the Halo, completely forgot about the Terminator Armor conflicting with it.

How does this build look? Better than the other two? I'll have the Marshal w/ PF in one squad and the Emperor's Champion with his Black Sword in the other, and I can always try and get some terminators on any big CC threats so I think I should be fine with the PWs instead of PFs on the initiates. I'll do more tweaking after I have more games under my belt but I feel pretty good about this list.

Marshal - 130 pts
Terminator Armor
Power Fist

Emperor's Champion - 110 pts
Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch

5 Sword Brethren Terminator Squad - 255 pts
2x Assault Cannon
Tank Hunter

5 Sword Brethren Terminator Squad - 255 pts
2x Assault Cannon
Tank Hunter

10 Crusader Squad Initiates - 280 pts
BP/CCW
Power Weapon
Meltagun
10 Neophytes
BP/CCW

10 Crusader Squad Initiates - 280 pts
BP/CCW
Power Weapon
Meltagun
10 Neophytes
BP/CCW

5 Crusader Squad Initiates - 95 pts
Bolter
Lascannon

5 Crusader Squad Initiates - 95 pts
Bolter
Lascannon

Total: 1500 pts

I think you really want a jump pack commander.

You have serious mobility issues as a marine player.

Having even one jump pack HQ is a credible threat people will not ignore.

Termie armor HQ? If they're coming to kill you in CC, they won't be afraid of him and you won't be able to control how the CC develops with the mobile HQ.

Stelek's right. Jump pack > Termie armour.

I've just recently started playing Templars, but I would highly suggest the Chaplain over the Marshall. Rerolling missed hits on the charge is nasty in a Templar army. Grimaldus is FANTASTIC for an all troop army as well if you move up to 1850 pt games. He can make both of the crusader squads Fearless.

I guess I'm just unsure how to use a jump pack marshal in this list.

Are you suggesting I should add a whole squad of jump pack marines to put him in?

If not, how would you use him?

I may also give more thought to a chaplain, I'm working on modeling up the rest of the army and my HQ choice will be the last thing I make since it's the one place I really don't know what I'm doing.

He sits in with the crusaders and pops out when someone gets too close that you don't want near you, and gives his all for the crusaders.

tegeus-Cromis and Stelek are right. The only time I'd ever recommend taking Terminator Armor on your commander is above the 1500 points level, and only if you plan on giving him a command squad. Having an extra pair of Assault Cannons is really nice, and you can field them on the cheap (relatively).

I'd also absolutely recomment the Holy Orb of Antioch (HOA). I never leave home without at least one (provided my commanders aren't in Termie Armor), as they are excellent one-shot backup weapons that keeps your opponent on his toes when your commander is around. You'll know what I'm talking about when you pop a Monolith with one. Greatest feeling in the world, for only 10 points.

YMMV on the Power Sword, but with 20 ablative wounds I can't see the downside of paying 5 extra points per squad to get Str8 attacks. Granted, you lose one attack in each squad, but that's a fair trade-off when you've already got 19 other Marines making 37 attacks in CC (Meltagunner only gets 1, of course), IMO.

Maybe something like this:

Marshal w/ Jump Pack, Power Weapon, Bolt Pistol, Frags, HOA

EC w/ Abhor

Terminators (5) w/ 2 AC, Tank Hunters

Terminators (5) w/ 2 AC, Tank Hunters

Crusader Squad (20) w/ PF, Meltagun

Crusader Squad (20) w/ PF, Meltagun

Crusader Squad (5) w/ Lascannon

Crusader Squad (5) w/ Lascannon

* * * * *

1497 Points. Hope that helps.

CK