Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey guys,

I've been out of the hobby for 7 or 8 years, and just got pulled back into playing Chaos. I have a few questions regarding psychic powers, specifically Chaos powers.

Can a DP or Sorcerer use more than one psychic power in a single turn?
example- a Tzeentch DP buys two psychic powers-warptime and doombolt. Can the DP cast Warptime at the start of the players turn, then cast Doombolt in the same turn's shooting phase(re-rolling missed doombolts and wounds)?

Can a Sorcerer use a psychic power and make a force weapon attack in the same turn?
example- can a Chaos Sorcerer cast Gift of Chaos, and in the same turn attempt to instant death an enemy in close combat with his force weapon?

Are character's limited to how many psychic tests they can take in a single turn?

I looked in the mini rule book, and could not find a rule limiting psychic tests to one per turn. And with Tzeentch HQ's being able to take 2 powers, it is confusing whether that implies I can cast both or just have the extra option to choose one power one turn and another the next.

Any help?

-FU 2000

Top of page 88 of the CSM codex says one power per turn unless the model has the mark of Tzeentch, in which case it may use two powers a turn (although not two powers that count as a shooting attack).


The Force Weapon rules on page 46 of the rulebook state that you cannot use the Force Weapon's ability in the same [player] turn you use another psychic power.


So your answers are: Yes and then no respectively.

That's not actually what the Force Weapon rules state. They say that you can not use an additional power if you use a Force Weapon. So you can use a psychic power during a turn before using a Force Weapon, just not afterward.

Democratus wrote:That's not actually what the Force Weapon rules state. They say that you can not use an additional power if you use a Force Weapon. So you can use a psychic power during a turn before using a Force Weapon, just not afterward.

No they don't they say:

". . .and you may not use another psychic power in the same turn."


If you use a power first and then try to use the Force Weapon's special ability you will be breaking that rule.

Not at all. I will not be using an additional power (i.e. one more power that turn). I will have already used all the powers that I can use in that turn. Up until I use the Force Weapon I have no such limitations.

The Force Weapon rules state that the insta-kill is a "Psychic Attack" that follows all the rules for psychic powers on page 52.

It is a psychic power and you may not use another power in the same turn.

It doesn't matter what order you perform them in, using both in the same turn would be breaking that rule.

A rule states that you may eat an orange, but may not eat another fruit on the same day.

In the morning you eat an apple.

In the afternoon you eat an orange.

Have you broken the rule? Yes. The apple is "another fruit" whether you ate it before or after the orange.

Models with the Mark of Tzeench may, indeed, use more than one psychic power in a turn. They may use a power and then use the Force Weapon - so long as they use no powers after activating the Force Weapon.

Models that are limited to one power per turn do have the limitation that you stated.

Democratus wrote:Models with the Mark of Tzeench may, indeed, use more than one psychic power in a turn. They may use a power and then use the Force Weapon - so long as they use no powers after activating the Force Weapon.

Models that are limited to one power per turn do have the limitation that you stated.

They may certainly use two regular powers in the same turn but the Force Weapon has a specific exemption that you may not use another power in the same turn.

I will say it again:

If you use another power on the same turn you use the force weapon's ability you will have violated the Force Weapon's restriction as you will have used another power in the same turn you used the force weapon's ability.

There is no time sensitivity to the restriction as you believe there is.

Correct. Once you have use the Force Weapon you may not use another psychic power in that turn. However, if you used a psychic power before using the Force Weapon you may still use it.

The entry says you may not use [i]another[i] power. It does not say "you may not have previously used another power in the same turn".

Democratus wrote:Correct. Once you have use the Force Weapon you may not use another psychic power in that turn. However, if you used a psychic power before using the Force Weapon you may still use it.

The entry says you may not use another power. It does not say "you may not have previously used another power in the same turn".

If there was a rule at your school that said:

If you sign up for a French class you may not sign up for another language class.


And you went and signed up for a German class and then tried to sign up for the French class guess what would happen?


You are misunderstanding the meaning of the restriction.

If I was at a buffet and was told "You can eat two items, but if you eat a bagel you can't eat another item." Then I would be able to eat a piece of chicken and then eat a bagel. After that I could eat nothing. If I ate the bagel first, I would be unable to have my second item.

The problem Demo is you used the word "but" and they use the word "and".

"but if you eat a bagel..." - adds another condition that sets up an "or" case in the logic. Eat (not a bagel) and something, or eat the bagel and nothing else, or as you stated you may eat something and then the bagel.

"and you may not use another psychic power ..." - adds another condition that is an "and" case in the logic. Use force weapon and not another power in the turn. Or in the case of tzeetch marked guys use two powers(neither of which are a force weapon).

Basically its an issue of the force weapon being written first and the CSM forgetting to mention it and restating that the old way force weapons were written no longer applies. Good game GW.

No. It would be the same. "and if you eat a bagle you can't eat another item" would still allow me to get a donut followed by a bagel, but not a bagel followed by a donut.

I do agree, though, that the lack of clarity is most likely due to the order in which the works were published. Let's all cross our fingers that 5th edition will clear up the mess.

So Democratus, your argument is basically that there is an implied "after that" following "another [whatever]"?

Democratus wrote:No. It would be the same. "and if you eat a bagle you can't eat another item" would still allow me to get a donut followed by a bagel, but not a bagel followed by a donut.

No actually it wouldn't and that seems to be the problem here. As either order you perform those two things in, at the end of the day have you eaten another item besides the bagel?

Yes. And therefore you have violated the rule.


In 40K (as with any game) you must 'break no rule' whenever possible. Using a psychic power in the same turn as the Force Weapon's psychic attack breaks the Force Weapon's restriction no matter which order they are used in because (yet again), within the same turn you have another power besides the Force Weapon's attack.

yakface wrote:

Democratus wrote:No. It would be the same. "and if you eat a bagle you can't eat another item" would still allow me to get a donut followed by a bagel, but not a bagel followed by a donut.

No actually it wouldn't and that seems to be the problem here. As either order you perform those two things in, at the end of the day have you eaten another item besides the bagel?

Yes. And therefore you have violated the rule.


In 40K (as with any game) you must 'break no rule' whenever possible. Using a psychic power in the same turn as the Force Weapon's psychic attack breaks the Force Weapon's restriction no matter which order they are used in because (yet again), within the same turn you have another power besides the Force Weapon's attack.

I have a question/contention, Yak.

First off, I'm not questioning you re: Democratus. His interpretation is incorrect, as far as using the FW AFTER a spell being an important factor.
I do wonder, however, how you see that a Tzeentch Sorc, who can cast 2 spells per turn, cannot use 1 spell & the FW.
I mean, Psychic powers have the same restriction as the FW (1 per turn), but we can cast 2 of those the same turn, if the Sorc. is Tzeentch. Also, as was said, the FW is treated as a psychic attack.

I don't see how the FW is exempt.

Now, admittedly, I do not have my codex here with me. That is why I'm asking & not "telling" how the rule should be interpreted (no specific facts to back it up). I CAN tell you that our group looked at it after the codex came out & we didn't see any restrictions disallowing a FW to be used as one power for a Sorc who gets 2 or more.

...Or did I miss something & you were speaking of generic Sorc's?


Thanks for your time.

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:[

I have a question/contention, Yak.

First off, I'm not questioning you re: Democratus. His interpretation is incorrect, as far as using the FW AFTER a spell being an important factor.
I do wonder, however, how you see that a Tzeentch Sorc, who can cast 2 spells per turn, cannot use 1 spell & the FW.
I mean, Psychic powers have the same restriction as the FW (1 per turn), but we can cast 2 of those the same turn, if the Sorc. is Tzeentch. Also, as was said, the FW is treated as a psychic attack.

I don't see how the FW is exempt.

Now, admittedly, I do not have my codex here with me. That is why I'm asking & not "telling" how the rule should be interpreted (no specific facts to back it up). I CAN tell you that our group looked at it after the codex came out & we didn't see any restrictions disallowing a FW to be used as one power for a Sorc who gets 2 or more.

...Or did I miss something & you were speaking of generic Sorc's?


Thanks for your time.

Eric

There is no limitation in the rulebook about how many powers a psyker may use in a turn. That is left wholly up to each codex. For example, Tyranids have no restriction on how many powers they can use and that's why a Zoanthrope can use Warp Blast in the shooting phase and then Catalyst in the subsequent assault phase.

Yes the Chaos codex restricts psykers from that codex to one power per turn (except for those with the mark of Tzeentch) but none of that has anything to do with the force weapon rules which have their own restriction, which has already been posted in this thread.

This is an entirely separate restriction from anything else in the game and simply put only allows a force weapon to be used on a turn when you don't use another power, period.


I believe this is almost certainly a hold over from the 3rd edition rules which did have a 'one power per turn' blanket rule for all psykers right in the rulebook. It looks like it will get changed in 5th edition based on the leaked PDF but for now, that is what the rules say.

Remember, by rules as written a Tzeench Deamon Prince MAY use two shooting psychic powers in the same faze.