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Hey all, just wanted to share a list I'm experimenting with.

This list was actually spawned off a list that stelek had posted for someone in another thread. I decided I liked the list form for a renegade legion, so made a few tweaks (Stelek hand a landraider in his because the user wanted it -- I took that out for MoN CSM)

So, right off the bat, I've been itching like crazy to use berzerkers and have a whole bunch of csm sitting around that I wanted to use. You'll see a bunch of good units in the list (1k sons, Noise Marines, DP etc) and then guiys like those. I have a sorc w/ lash to help make honest threats out of the berzerkers, and I brought a big lot of them with MoN to offset their general crapitude....

OK, I'm going to post the list and talk about it a little more after:

HQ: Chaos Sorceror (1#, 145 Pts)
1 Chaos Sorceror @ 145 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x1); Force Weapon (x1); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Jump Pack; Lash of Submission; Mark of Slaanesh

HQ: Daemon Prince (1#, 160 Pts)
1 Daemon Prince @ 160 Pts
Close Combat Weapon; Fearless; Wings; Mark of Slaanesh; Warptime (x1)

Troops: Khorne Berzerkers (8#, 208 Pts)
7 Khorne Berzerkers @ 208 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Fearless; Furious Charge; Mark of Khorne
1 Skull Champion @ [61] Pts
Bolt Pistol; Power Fist; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Fearless; Furious Charge; Mark of Khorne

Troops: Thousand Sons (7#, 208 Pts)
6 Thousand Sons @ 208 Pts
Bolter; Fearless; Slow and Purposeful; Inferno Bolts; Mark of Tzeentch
1 Aspiring Sorceror @ [70] Pts
Bolt Pistol; Force Weapon; Fearless; Doombolt; Inferno Bolts; Mark of Tzeentch

Troops: Noise Marines (6#, 150 Pts)
6 Noise Marines @ 150 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Sonic Blaster (x6); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Fearless; Mark of Slaanesh

Heavy Support: Obliterators (2#, 150 Pts)
2 Obliterators @ 150 Pts
Power Fist; Obliterator Weapons; Fearless; Slow and Purposeful

Heavy Support: Obliterators (2#, 150 Pts)
2 Obliterators @ 150 Pts
Power Fist; Obliterator Weapons; Fearless; Slow and Purposeful

Troops: Chaos Space Marines (14#, 320 Pts)
13 Chaos Space Marines @ 320 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Bolter; Meltagun (x2); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Icon of Nurgle; Mark of Nurgle
1 Aspiring Champion @ [55] Pts
Bolt Pistol; Power Fist; Bolter; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Mark of Nurgle

Total Roster Cost: 1491

the gameplan? Advance. Slog and shoot until an opportunity to assault presents itself. CSMs are abnormally tough and large, and are nigh immune to bolter fire (or that's how it felt when I played a test versus my smurfs). the berzerkers are probably the last thing to get shot, as the opp is most likely going to need to deal with the sons/marines/oblits shooting pretty quickly. If this happens, I can bide my time to get them into the lines and assault.

I see this as potentially having huge problems with a mech eldar list, but I'm not primarily concerned with that since no one I know plays them looking to test more against SMs and Nids. Mostly wanted to share . Comments and critiques welcome.

Aaah you jacked my list!

Lol, jk Stelek made it for me! Free bump for you to get some help!

heh, yeah, I saw the list and really only made the tweak of adding a ton of the Nurgle CSM in there.

I haven't tested versus a million lists, but right now it's trashing my SM list pretty bad.

What's the Space Marine list like?

safh --this list is in constant flux as I toy around with the optimal config. Not trying to imply that it's a world-beater list. in short, though, it's double lib, all troops (1 Whirlwind)/las +hbs, et al.

I'm wondering about the specifics, like the army lists you beat with the Chaos Marines listed above. It'd also be helpful to know what missions you played.

played straight up kill'em all --nothing special.

Lik I said, the list was in total flux...but here's the list that completely wiped the board of chaos on turn four:

Elite: Terminator Squad (5#, 240 Pts)
4 Terminator Squad @ 240 Pts
Power Fist (x4); Storm Bolter (x2); Assault Cannon (x2)
1 Sergeant @ [40] Pts
Power Weapon (x1); Storm Bolter

Elite: Terminator Squad (5#, 240 Pts)
4 Terminator Squad @ 240 Pts
Power Fist (x4); Storm Bolter (x2); Assault Cannon (x2)
1 Sergeant @ [40] Pts
Power Weapon (x1); Storm Bolter

Elite: Terminator Squad (5#, 240 Pts)
4 Terminator Squad @ 240 Pts
Power Fist (x4); Storm Bolter (x2); Assault Cannon (x2)
1 Sergeant @ [40] Pts
Power Weapon (x1); Storm Bolter

Troops: Tactical Squad (5#, 90 Pts)
4 Tactical Squad @ 90 Pts
Bolter (x3); Lascannon (x1)
1 Sergeant @ [15] Pts
Bolter

Troops: Tactical Squad (5#, 90 Pts)
4 Tactical Squad @ 90 Pts
Bolter (x3); Lascannon (x1)
1 Sergeant @ [15] Pts
Bolter

Troops: Tactical Squad (5#, 90 Pts)
4 Tactical Squad @ 90 Pts
Bolter (x3); Lascannon (x1)
1 Sergeant @ [15] Pts
Bolter

Troops: Tactical Squad (5#, 90 Pts)
4 Tactical Squad @ 90 Pts
Bolter (x3); Lascannon (x1)
1 Sergeant @ [15] Pts
Bolter

Heavy Support: Devastator Squad (6#, 150 Pts)
5 Devastator Squad @ 150 Pts
Bolter (x1); Heavy Bolter (x4)
1 Sergeant @ [15] Pts
Bolter

Heavy Support: Devastator Squad (6#, 150 Pts)
5 Devastator Squad @ 150 Pts
Bolter (x1); Heavy Bolter (x4)
1 Sergeant @ [15] Pts
Bolter

HQ: Master (1#, 120 Pts)
1 Master @ 120 Pts
Power Weapon (x1); Storm Bolter
1 Iron Halo @ [25] Pts

Total Roster Cost: 1500

the funny thing was that I thoght it would be weaker to lash due to lack of libs, but the firepower + better targetting priorities made it a moot point.

And here's the revision of the Chaos list. this came after the drubbing --i'll test it out tonight.

HQ: Daemon Prince (1#, 155 Pts)
1 Daemon Prince @ 155 Pts
Close Combat Weapon; Fearless; Wings; Lash of Submission (x1); Mark of Slaanesh

HQ: Daemon Prince (1#, 155 Pts)
1 Daemon Prince @ 155 Pts
Close Combat Weapon; Fearless; Wings; Lash of Submission (x1); Mark of Slaanesh

Troops: Khorne Berzerkers (8#, 198 Pts)
7 Khorne Berzerkers @ 198 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Fearless; Furious Charge; Mark of Khorne
1 Skull Champion @ [51] Pts
Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Fearless; Furious Charge; Mark of Khorne

Troops: Thousand Sons (9#, 254 Pts)
8 Thousand Sons @ 254 Pts
Bolter; Fearless; Slow and Purposeful; Inferno Bolts; Mark of Tzeentch
1 Aspiring Sorceror @ [70] Pts
Bolt Pistol; Force Weapon; Fearless; Doombolt; Inferno Bolts; Mark of Tzeentch

Troops: Noise Marines (8#, 190 Pts)
8 Noise Marines @ 190 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Bolter (x2); Sonic Blaster (x6); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Fearless; Mark of Slaanesh

Heavy Support: Obliterators (2#, 150 Pts)
2 Obliterators @ 150 Pts
Power Fist; Obliterator Weapons; Fearless; Slow and Purposeful

Heavy Support: Obliterators (2#, 150 Pts)
2 Obliterators @ 150 Pts
Power Fist; Obliterator Weapons; Fearless; Slow and Purposeful

Troops: Plague Marines (8#, 239 Pts)
7 Plague Marines @ 239 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Bolter; Plasmagun (x1); Blight Grenades; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Fearless; Feel NoPain; Mark of Nurgle
1 Plague Champion @ [63] Pts
Bolt Pistol; Power Fist; Bolter; Blight Grenades; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Fearless; Feel NoPain; Mark of Nurgle

Total Roster Cost: 1491

beefed up unit sizes and replaced the csm for plague marines, which I suspected I would be doing sooner than later.

gamefiend: Well no wonder your Space Marines got pummeled. Too many small squads, too many anti-infantry and anti-tank weapons (Heavy Bolters and Lascannons), and no Psychic Protection.

Switch the Master out for a Librarian, the Heavy Bolters for Plasma Cannons (or Missile Launchers), the Lascannons for Plasma Guns, the Terminators for extra bodies in the Tactical squads, and some Armour like Whirlwinds or Predators.

Read again, please -- that list mopped the csms up neatly.

"Like I said, the list was in total flux...but here's the list that completely wiped the board of chaos on turn four: "

the fire pouring out from this list was way too much for the csms to take. With smarter targetting (it was really an issue of generalship the first few I lost, IMO --was hitting the wrong units first) knocked just short of a third of the army a turn, then mopped up on four.

That said, I want to talk about the Chaos list, not the SM list. I'll make a post about the SM list later when I want to go over it.

gamefiend: I'm sorry, I did misread that. I agree that it must have been an issue of generalship that let your Chaos Marine army down. You may want to replay the battle again.

By the way, what mission were you playing?

I like the revised list for the most part.

I think the KB are weaksauce, but until you learn it for yourself...well, swap the oblits in when ya do.

sigh...yeah. the current state of berzerkers is the most brutal thing Khorne has ever done, methinks.

The rest of the army is working well, trading games with the SM army --seems to depend on who goes first and gets the opening salvo, though the CSMs have the advantage of being able to hide if they lose 1st.

the fate of the zerkers is tied to those first few critical turns. If DPs/oblit/TS have done some nice shredding, the opponent *has* to pour their available fire into those threats and get them off the board ASAP. Then the Berzerkers get to play cleanup (this is assuming we're versus a SAFH). if the other army has momentum on their side, the main threats are going to be capped and then all guns swivel to the plodding berzerkers, where it is then GGPO BuhBy Thx!

Man, does the bloodgod hate netspeak. But he's forced to hear it as long as he insists on churning out slot, trodding berzerkers.

I'm thinking what these berzerkers are going to get is the 'jump pack upgrade' and become raptors with (maybe) a MoK. They'll then be doing what I want --a third viable assault unit with potential of a first turn assault with lash.

Some more comments since I'm evidently feeling chatty Might help other newbies with some lessons learned :

--with the excpetion of the CSM previously and now the KB, all the units are capable of putting on the hurt. !k sons knock out everything this side of a terminator, oblits just smash everything, noise marines throw enough dice to hurt most things, and plague marines just...won't....die...so they rule the midfield.

The whole army is fearless so you can use every unit to the last drop.

In short, cult troops rock. The only way I would try to use vanilla CSMs now is with Fabius Bile, so that they're all fearless. But that seems somehow suboptimal.

--lash is pretty cool, but your army has to play well without it. Lash is pretty awesome. 1st turn assault? Can make that happen. lash-plasma? yeah, i like to refer to that as a terminator-to-VP converter. But being agressive with lash means typically losing it that turn as your DPs are going to get shot right up, which is actually quite ok. I'll trade two terminator squads for two DPs. And the DPs take enough damage that means your sons/NM/PM aren't getting hit quite so hard. And certainly your oblits will survive, which is good because...

--Oblits rule. I'm starting to be of the opinion that they are the engine of chaos. Yes, they pop to lascannons...see above. If you have several tough, "must-kill" threats But their heavy weapon flexibilty is super powerful, and allows you a great amount of flexibility to deal with whatever is front of you at the moment. I'm of the belief that Oblits are at the top of the must-kill list when fighting chaos. Still testing, of course, so my opinion may change.

So what missions did you play when you were testing this list?

Also, with regard to the Berzerkers, why haven't you given them a transport? The other units can shoot back, but the Berzerkers need to either move fast or use cover and disposable Rhino can provide both.

I definitely agree that Obliterators tend to take target priority when-ever they appear. That's why we stopped bothering with Obliterators on-mass in my gaming group their flexilibty combined with their vulnerability just made taking them a waste of points.

just standard, stand across from the table, kill-for-vps missions --not to be confused with, by any means, bowling for dollars.

Right now I'm testing "punching power" --this is the heavybag test. I'm just trying to find patterns and test general efficiency. I'll be moving to more objective based missions shortly, but I like to keep initial test games simple.

Didn't give the KBs rhinos because I'd rather have speed that is not dependent on something that's so easy to kill. If i was running a mech list with more AT targets I'd consider a rhino, but since I don't, it's jump packs for me!