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Ok let me get the rants out of the way first. Against Space Wolves i have some difficulty only because his army is better geared to CC than mine and im a one trick pony in my army lists. Im either trying toi get the RW close enough to get termies into cover or to get his line to shift. ..... gosh where do i start.. oh i know he can get 3-4 PF in a squad! for half the cost of my units that can only get 1 it seems. i tried a list that was heavy on bikes and got slaughtered. I tried Sammael on his jetbike with apoth, banner and 4 more bikers, sarge with PF and attbike with MM also had 2 bikers with melta guns. a 600 point disaster. I charged the grey hunters on turn 1 hoping to wipe it out and consolidate into the Blood claws but low and behold i could take them out and ended up losing the whole hq squad in 2 1/2 turns because the blodd claws were able to make it over and charge me. I know this was aggressive on my part but in an 1850 point game i thought a 1/3 of my points could do more. Any ways im playing SW again tonight and here is the list im putting together.

HQ: Int Chappy with Jump pack : This is something i have been wanting to try. I want the chappy to leap around to join squads about to charge. Im hoping he can lend some good hitting power to a group of Vets that i am transporting in a LR.
140 Points ( i was thinking maybe throw a PF on hi as well so if squad survives through INI 4 the vet squad would have another PF to hit with hat would bring him to 165)
(or i could mount him on a bike)

Elite : Vet squad x10: 2 marines with PF and BP, Sarge with Single LC/BP/Melta Bombs
280 Points

Elite: Deathwing Termies: 1xTH/SS, 1xLC, Sarge with PS/SB, 1xAsscannon,PF, 1x SB/PF -
245 Points.

Heavy Support: Landraider Crusader -
250 Points -

Heavy Support : Vindicator
125 Points -

Troops: Tac Squad x10 - Las cannon, Plasma Gun - (Combat Squad to get the Lascannon in a good firing position, remaining 5 to move to an objective, my opponent likes to rhino rush his Blood CLaws who could blame him, im hoping to pop them open early)
Sarge: PS/PP
230 points

Trops: Tac Squadx10 - Las Cannon, Plasma Gun -(Combat Squad to get the Lascannon in a good firing position, remaining 5 to move to an objective, my opponent likes to rhino rush his Blood CLaws who could blame him, im hoping to pop them open early)
Sarge: PS/PP
230 points

Fast Attack: Ravenwing Squad x3 2x Melta Gun (for tank hunting after dropping in the termies)
Sarge: PS/PP - Melta Bombs
175 Points

Fast Attack: Ravenwing Squad x3 2x Melta Gun (for tank hunting after dropping in the termies)
Sarge: PS/PP - Melta Bombs
175 Points

As it stands right now this is a Model light army list and im certain at the ridiculously low point costs for the wolves i can expect alot of models. My concern is if i try to match him with more models in my list i am losing the DA fluff and becoming a Vanilla no trait SM list. Not acceptable to me.

So this list is 1840 points giving me 10 points to determine if i want to have the chappy on a bike. I need the LR Crusader to get the Vets into combat quickly enough to make a difference. What i hope for is to deploy all my army on one flank and then push the vindicator up with the LR and use them both to smash the units to the sides of the unit the vets will disembark and charge. Assuming i get the charge. I want the Chappy to bounce with the tanks and tac squads using the tanks as cover and then join the vet unit when it disembarks and charge with them.

My only change i was thinking of would be to dump the vets and put one DW termy squad in LRC and then have the other TP off the bikes first turn. Or i would dump the LRC all together and add another vindicator, drop the vets and just tp termies off the bikes ... SIGH .. Its tough to know that you are going to be playing against alot of SMs that are purchased at half the cost. or a 1/3 less. I have to put all my eggs into one flank.

Well i could use some criticism on my one trick pony here the only models i dont have are Tanks except for 2 Vindis and the LRC. Im not a fan of armor.

Your list looks fairly solid. I don't see it as a one trick list at all. What appears to be your problem based on what you said, is that you concentrate too much on one unit and trying to make that unit do all your work. What you need to do is support your units. If you have a unit like the vet squad, try softening up their target with shooting prior to assaulting or setting up a supporting charge to make sure you break the squad. Especially against other marines, the only way to wipe them out is to physically kill them all since they can't be overrun by an initative roll.

My suggestion is to drop the JP off the chaplain and attach him to the vet squad, making them fearless and giving them litanies of hate. With those points you can either give him a PF or TH for the option of hard hitting. Don't focus so much on what the terminators are doing, they won't last long against dedicated fire of any kind. Instead use their deep strike to threaten units and make your opponent shift his own units to counter them. Doing this you can exploit any unsupported units he leaves with the bikes or vets in the LRC.

I think part of the problem is you are trying to out fight the SW in cc. That's not where the DA do well. They are a "combined forces" type army. You need to think counter charge and therefore you spend the first couple turns shooting the crap out of him and then assault with your assault elements against his weakened forces.

With that, I wouldn't change much except I'd drop one squad of Ravenwing and take an attack bike for tank hunting and objective holding; don't DS the Termi's, you are better off just having them at your line for counter-charge; drop a few Vets, you don't need a unit of 10 for a counter-assault unit; drop all the plasma pistols, they will get one shot, maybe and won't make their points back; with the points saved, take a unit of Devs with 4 ML or LC for taking down his Rhinos early and making him walk towards your gun line. Personally, I'd take a regular LR over the Crusader, you could use the extra Anti-tank. Also, a dirty trick would be to use your cheap 35 point Rhinos to block his Rhino rush. Even if your Rhino's are destroyed, he can't drive over them as he doesn't have greater armor.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Dakkaladd wrote:Your list looks fairly solid. I don't see it as a one trick list at all. What appears to be your problem based on what you said, is that you concentrate too much on one unit and trying to make that unit do all your work. What you need to do is support your units. If you have a unit like the vet squad, try softening up their target with shooting prior to assaulting or setting up a supporting charge to make sure you break the squad. Especially against other marines, the only way to wipe them out is to physically kill them all since they can't be overrun by an initative roll.

My suggestion is to drop the JP off the chaplain and attach him to the vet squad, making them fearless and giving them litanies of hate. With those points you can either give him a PF or TH for the option of hard hitting. Don't focus so much on what the terminators are doing, they won't last long against dedicated fire of any kind. Instead use their deep strike to threaten units and make your opponent shift his own units to counter them. Doing this you can exploit any unsupported units he leaves with the bikes or vets in the LRC.

Well the Chappy can join he vet squad when they do disembark. The idea is being that if the Termies drop in a savory spot and he is wheeling away from my LRC then i can jump the chappy over to the termies to provide that extra punch should they be able top charge. Also if trhings work out later on in the battle he could bolster a tac squad as well. I like the Idea of the Chaplain traversing the battlefield left and right to help men that need it.. kinda fluffy i know but hey i like the fluff.

IUm a huge fan of the Vindicator and i have 2 of them. I think they pose a large enough threat that i could write my list to include them but 2 basic Vindis and a LRC is 500 points. Although this would definitely free up my termies from heavy weapons fire as they would be concentrated on the Vindis. The only other idea would be to add the same threat with Sammaels LS(flying LR) This could roll with the bikes and pose a serious threat on another flank. I know he will most likely have one predator all Lascannons and a Ven Dread with a coupe rhinos. I want to pop those so he has to diembark. The ven dread with TL lascannon and ML would do the work of a Dev squad and last longer.

I have a core choice of Vehicles i like to build on for most my lists.

2x Basic Vindicators = 500 points
1 x LRC
1x Venerable Dread Twin linked Lascan, ML

665 points right there

from there im thinking i need troops and HQ ...troops meaning foot soldiers to hold opbjectives.

so i like 2 las plas tac squads but thats 460 points right there.

So how do i make it DA? Well i need bikes and termies and an HQ. I could do CHappy in Term armor and roll in the LRC thats 6 models that cant really expect to last long against blood claws with 3 hidden Fists. So i have to widdle them with fire. The Vindicators are there to put the fear of god in the units and to devote his heavy weapons fire away from my termies .

I cant do 2 termy squads unless i want to lose some tank hunting ability in the RW squads. maybe again i should dump the LRC put Sammaels speeder on the board and TP the termies off the bikes. Gives me the AV14 to pull some fire from his single tank and i can hunt anything else i want with him.


Sorry im brainstorming here

DAs bore me too much for me to comment at length, but I want to point out something about your Termie squad that is relatively minor but has no reason to be there:

Sarge with PS/SB

Look, it's a power weapon! What on earth can it be doing there? Give your Sgt TH/SS or LCs and switch one of the normal Termies to SB/PF if you want that bit of dakka. CSMs pay good points to upgrade from PWs, but your Sgt can do it for free, so do it!