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ALCON,

I haven't played a serious game in almost a year now and am starting to make my way back into the hobby. If you guys could take a look at this list and give me some critics, I'd appreaciate it.

Thanks,
Mike K.

HQ
1 Master with Artificer Armor, Iron Halo, Terminator Honors, Power Weapon, Powerfist
Escorted by command squad consisting of 4 Veteran Marines with BP/CCW, 1 Veteran Sergeant with Powerfist
Mounted in Razorback with HBs, Extra Armor, Smoke

Total Points: 398

Troops

Tactical Squad with 8 Marines, Lascannon, Plasmagun, mounted in a Rhino: 195 points

Tactical Squad with 8 Marines, Lascannon, Plasmagun, mounted in a Rhino: 195 points

Tactical Squad with 5 Marines, 1 Veteran Sergeant with Powerfist, Missile Launcher, Plasma Gun, mounted in a Razorback with Lascannon, Extra Armor, Smoke: 238 points

Tactical Squad with 5 Marines, 1 Veteran Sergeant with Powerfist, Missile Launcher, Plasma Gun, mounted in a Razorback with Lascannon, Extra Armor, Smoke: 238 points

Heavy Support

Predator Destructor with Lascannon sponsons 125 points

Predator Destructor with Lascannon sponsons 125 points

Whirlwind 85 points

Fast Attack

3 Attack Bikes with Heavy Bolters

Total Points: 1749

45 models, 34 Infantry, 8 Vehicles, 3 Bikes

Hi, I have a few suggestions:

If you are planning on actually using the rhinos for more than to just block charges and block LOS for your models you need to drop the heavy weapons in the squads that have transports and buff them to 10 men each. Razorbacks are pretty bad make them rhinos to save points. Every tac squad should have a pf always. Hidden powerfist is very very good. If you want to use predators, make all the weapons consistent, that means you shouldn't have autocannons in with lascannons on your predators as a predator has to fire its weapon at the same target. This means that you want it to have all of its weapons the kind that you fire at one target e.g. 3 lascannons or 1 autocannon and 2 heavy bolters. Firing 2 lascannons at a tank is good but then you waste the autocannon shots. I would make one have 1AC and 2HB. I would drop the other tank in favor of some devs with lascannons. Whirlwinds are pretty terrible drop this for points to make your marine squads larger. Attack bikes are also bad - they are too many points for something that dies that easily. Drop the squad and grab a couple of landspeeders with assault cannons, they'll really help you against almost every army.

Hey Mike!

The master has a Power Weapon & a Power Fist? I never heard of that before! I know your a tank man, your name kind of gives it away so I would like to discuss the whirlwind. Some people just love these things. I personally have never played one before, but I would think that a autocannon & heavy bolter predator would be more effective. I will submit that people do hide these guys and that can make them to a degree more survivable I suppose which may be a one up on the predator, that and it's cheaper points wise. What the predator (destructor I think?) with AC & HB has over the WW is that it doesn't scatter, higher strength lower armor piercing weapons (8 shots) and longer range.
To me this is a better buy points wise.

I would also consider putting the lascannons with the razorbacks instead of the rhino squads and the powerfists with the rhino squads instead of the razorbacks. The reason being that the rhino squads may be closer to the enemy and be more likely to enter close combat whereas the razorback squad would do better to sit back and shoot.

Just some thoughts!
John.

John,

Yup, the master has both. Since I plan on him being my mine assault guy, I want to be able to use his INT 5 in situations that require me to strike first and use the powerfist in situations where it benefits me to cause more wounds.

The big benefit for the Whirlwind is the ability to shoot into deadspace on the board. Opponents hiding a mortar or D-Cannon squad behind a woodline can still be targeted this way. The ability to cause pin tests is also nice.

As for the powerfists in the squads, I think you're right. I'm gonna switch those heavy weapons around. That would give me two 6-man squads with a Razorback to hold the line and give me two larger squads I can flex into a support role or an assault role.

I might switch one of the Predators around. The reason I like the Autocannon/Lascannon setup is that with the STR 7 autocannon, I still have 4 shots that can achieve effects against AV13 vehicles and the autocannon provides a good anti-infantry weapon for when I have to move and shoot. The bulk of my anti-tank firepower comes from the two Lascannon Razorbacks and their squads since they are single weapon system units. I use the Predators in a free safety role to mop up any priority targets that my dedicated anti-infantry or anti-tank units have failed to eliminate. If I switch one of them over, I would probably up one of them to an annihilator. The attack bikes should be able to fill the void left by the lack of an autocannon/HB tank. I'll post the revised list later on tonight.

Any thoughts on the command squad itself? I'm a little leery of taking such an expensive unit. I'm considering ditching them in favor of a small assault squad or some speeders.

Take care,
Mike K.

I wouldn't use the attack bikes, they're gonna get taken out very easily. Also as said above drop the lascannons off of the preds for HB's. beef up the close combat squads and put them in rhinos, not razorbacks. don't use razorbacks at all. with the points gained from the drop of razorbacks you could bulk your squads up so they aren't so small and can take a little more punishment.

i would convert the command squad into terminators, dropping the razorback for the mobility of deepstriking when wanted/needed. terms will pump impressive fire, and will still lend powerful cc support when needed.

for ultimate assault punch, IMHO libs are the best thing in the SM list. with a psychic power layout of veil of time and either fury -- i don't like this because too many good armies don't care enough about morale -- or fear of the ancients, the lib can do spectacular amounts of damage, and fulfill a lot of different roles

you have to spend a fearsome amount of points to get the lib good, but having a char with rerollable 4+ invulnerable saves, to-hits, to-wounds, and morale is, in my mind, ridiculous and well worth the points.

Even just slapping on a Jump pack and sticking him with an assault squad works pretty well.

also, agree with bastirou on the bikes -- those three bikes could easily be two speeders which will give you hbs and ACs, for more combined firepower. I think 2 HBs and 2 ACs are better than 3 TL Bolters + 3 HB.

PanzerLeader wrote:
Any thoughts on the command squad itself? I'm a little leery of taking such an expensive unit. I'm considering ditching them in favor of a small assault squad or some speeders.

My thinking is because the squad is mounted in a razorback you'll be tempted to move 6 and shoot instead of 12 which my suit them better seeing that they are geared for close combat, on the other hand you do have the option if you don't need to move 12 TO shoot. You have a good amount of armor to make the other play have to make some tuff choices on what to shoot at. It's not a bad idea mounting them in a razorback for the options. Just depends on what you want their role to be. That would be 3 transports running at the other player so maybe you could put the command squad razorback behind the other two for sort of a screen. Something I have been considering is 2 chaplains with twin lightening claws & an assault squad with a sergeant with twin lighting claws instead of fist to be a counter assault unit. That is a lot of rerolling power weapons both to hit and to wound. Running this 7-8 guys behind a couple of rhinos would be a nasty assault force in my opinion.

Ok, here is a revised list based off what I've heard. Not to sound ungrateful, but dropping Razorbacks is not an option for me. They are kinda my trademark from back in the day when I fielded up to 6 at once with the old Las/Plas combo. They might not be what they once were, but I still have a soft spot in my heart for them and will never include less then two in an army I field. Currently 8 points over. Also think Army Builder might not be factoring in the points for preferred enemy, which would be problematic.

Why do people think Attack Bikes are ineffective? I used them frequently and as long as they are maneuvered carefully I've always gotten excellent results out of them. Of course, that was back in the day of the 2+ save. I would like to hear more about what people think about them. If convinced, I will plug two Landspeeder Typhoons into the list in their place (which would also happily drop me down to 1748 instead of 1758 points).

Thanks for the time,
Mike K.

HQ: Master (1#, 195 Pts)
1 Master @ 195 Pts
Power Fist (x1); Power Weapon (x1); Preferred Enemy
1 Artificer Armor @ [20] Pts
1 Iron Halo @ [25] Pts
1 Jump Pack @ [20] Pts
1 Terminator Honors @ [15] Pts

Troops: Tactical Squad (7#, 205 Pts)
5 Tactical Squad @ 205 Pts
Bolter (x3); Plasmagun (x1); Lascannon (x1); Preferred Enemy
1 Razorback @ [90] Pts
Twin Linked Lascannon
1 Sergeant @ [15] Pts
Bolter

Troops: Tactical Squad (7#, 205 Pts)
5 Tactical Squad @ 205 Pts
Bolter (x3); Plasmagun (x1); Lascannon (x1); Preferred Enemy
1 Razorback @ [90] Pts
Twin Linked Lascannon
1 Sergeant @ [15] Pts
Bolter

Troops: Tactical Squad (10#, 243 Pts)
8 Tactical Squad @ 243 Pts
Bolter (x6); Plasmagun (x1); Missile Launcher (x1); Preferred Enemy
1 Rhino @ [58] Pts
Storm Bolter; Extra Armor; Smoke Launchers
1 Sergeant @ [45] Pts
Bolt Pistol (x1); Power Fist (x1); Preferred Enemy; Terminator Honors

Troops: Tactical Squad (10#, 243 Pts)
8 Tactical Squad @ 243 Pts
Bolter (x6); Plasmagun (x1); Missile Launcher (x1); Preferred Enemy
1 Rhino @ [58] Pts
Storm Bolter; Extra Armor; Smoke Launchers
1 Sergeant @ [45] Pts
Bolt Pistol (x1); Power Fist (x1); Preferred Enemy; Terminator Honors

Heavy Support: Predator Destructor (1#, 125 Pts)
1 Predator Destructor @ 125 Pts
Autocannon; Lascannon (x2)

Heavy Support: Predator Annihilator (1#, 145 Pts)
1 Predator Annihilator @ 145 Pts
Twin Linked Lascannon; Lascannon (x2)

Heavy Support: Whirlwind (1#, 85 Pts)
1 Whirlwind @ 85 Pts
Vengenance Missiles; Whirlwind Multiple Missile Launcher

Fast Attack: Assault Squad (6#, 162 Pts)
5 Assault Squad @ 162 Pts
Jump Packs; Frag Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x5); Close Combat Weapon (x5)
1 Sergeant @ [52] Pts
Jump Packs; Frag Grenades (squad); Bolt Pistol (x1); Power Fist (x1); Preferred Enemy; Terminator Honors

Fast Attack: Attack Bike Squadron (3#, 150 Pts)
3 Attack Bike Squadron @ 150 Pts
Frag Grenades; Twin Linked Bolter (x3); Heavy Bolter (x3)

Total Roster Cost: 1758