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burna boyz charge 3 obliterators in cover and kill them all...

roll d6 massacre and consolidate into a single obliterator also in cover

all burna boyz stay in the forest when they consolidate into the obliterator

next turn, 2 units of demons move and assault into the combat


a: does a unit that is consolidated into benefit from cover? (ie is it the first round of a new combat?)

(and,yes, I know the obliterator has a power fist, so this was a moot point in this case)


b: do the burna boyz benefit from cover for the two units of demons attacking them?

Alot of people play it differently.

The way I personally play this single case is:

The burnas get cover from the demons.

A: No, the consolidation is not considered a new assault, thus the orks do not get furious charge or the extra attack and the unit in the cover does not benefit from I 10.

B: Yes, since the demons were not involved in the combat before, they initiate an assault on a unit in cover. In this case all applicable rules apply for the first round of combat.

thank you for your opinions!... I do have a question...

I don't see where it is not a new assault... you don't get the charge bonus.. because they aren't making an organized charge...

but this is the first round of combat between the consolidating unit and the new unit it is attacking, isn't it?

Well, it's technically the first round of combat, but it sure doesn't seem to make much sense for this unit which is already Locked with the oblit (per page 44), to be lurking in cover and taking advantage of it to strike first.

Per RAW I suspect both the Oblit and the burnas could strike first.

But the INAT FAQ has ruled to the contrary:

RB.39.02A – Q: If models fighting an existing close combat are within cover and charged by a new enemy unit do they get the cover bonus? Do the Attacking models get to use grenades?

A: No. Once locked in combat, models within cover gain no further benefit from it and therefore attackers cannot use grenades or Flesh Hooks against them [rules change].

If only the INAT FAQ was worth the non-GW paper it's printed upon, it might be relevant to the discussion.

Sigh. Quoting a fan-made FAQ is the same as 'I called GW and they said."

I gave my opinion based on the RAW. And THEN I quoted the INAT FAQ as an FYI, including the part where the writers label it a rules change. It's nothing like making that classic misguided Appeal to Authority blunder of arguing based on what a GW staffer allegedly told the arguer.

To quote one of my opponents from Adepticon:

"I loved the event under the INAT_FAQ, it made the difference to just have an answer under so many circumstances. I only wish it were larger really, as we still had the occasional question that wasn't covered. "


The INAT FAQ helped make Adepticon one of the smoothest events I've ever had as far as rules discussions go. It's definitely something I'll continue to use and reference wherever my opponents agree, though of course in YMTC it's of limited relevance.

Page 44 under consolidation says "the [consolidation] move may be used to contact enemy units and lock them in combat, but the consolidating unit must maintain unit coherency and does not count as charging when combat is worked out next turn."

So we go to to page 39 in the assault section and read "cover":
"After the first round of close combat, fighting is assumed to have swept into the cover, so no further advantage is gained by models in it."

This is pretty clear. While a consolidation happens during one assault phase, the combat does not technically occur until the next phase, making it the first phase of that combat. Thus, a unit that is charged the turn after consolidating into a new opponent in cover will gain benefits of that cover. Oddly enough, this denies the target of the consolidation the benefits of cover, while giving it to the unit whom did the consolidating.

Edit misread your post. My bad not yours.

Well apparently the past 2 years of 'FAQ's are coming!' will end with the release of 5th edition.

Ok, we all know it's a bunch of BS, but it's nice to say until what--6 months after release and no FAQ's?

jwelvis629 wrote:
thank you for your opinions!... I do have a question...

I don't see where it is not a new assault... you don't get the charge bonus.. because they aren't making an organized charge...

but this is the first round of combat between the consolidating unit and the new unit it is attacking, isn't it?

"Models that are charged while they are in or behind cover normally fight in close combat with an Initiative value of 10 (39, BGB)."

"The [consolidation] move may be used to contact enemy units and lock them in combat, but the consolidating unit must maintain unit coherency and does not count as charging when the combat is worked out next turn (44, BGB)."

Since the consolidating unit doesn't count as charging, the unit they made contact with isn't being charge and therefore doesn't meet the requirements to attack at I10.

Dakkaladd wrote:Page 44 under consolidation says "the [consolidation] move may be used to contact enemy units and lock them in combat, but the consolidating unit must maintain unit coherency and does not count as charging when combat is worked out next turn."

Excellent rule quote and it settles a bit of the argument but it is not the entirety of the situation. We now know that the boyz are not "charging" but what does that mean as far as cover goes?

So we go to to page 39 in the assault section and read "cover":
"After the first round of close combat, fighting is assumed to have swept into the cover, so no further advantage is gained by models in it."

While this is again a correct rule quote, I don't think it's a relevent rule for the situation. While it may or may not be the first round of combat for the boyz, it is certainly the first round of combat for the unit they consolidated into. What would be a useful rule to quote is what the conditions are for gaining the cover bonus. If the rules say something along the lines of "a unit that is in cover strikes at I 10 when charged by an enemy" then the target would not get the the bonus since the boyz are not charging (per first quoted rule). If, on the other hand, they say something like "units in cover strike at I 10 in the first round of combat" then the target would get the bonus since it is the first round of combat for them.

Phoenix wrote:
What would be a useful rule to quote is what the conditions are for gaining the cover bonus. If the rules say something along the lines of "a unit that is in cover strikes at I 10 when charged by an enemy" then the target would not get the the bonus since the boyz are not charging (per first quoted rule). If, on the other hand, they say something like "units in cover strike at I 10 in the first round of combat" then the target would get the bonus since it is the first round of combat for them.

See my first quote in the post above.

Once again Imriel is one step ahead of me. So since you have to be charged to get the cover bonus and you do not count as charging when consolidating, they target would not be I 10 against the boyz. The boyz would however be I10 against the third squad charging into them on the next turn though.

Which is exactly what I said 6 posts ago. Amazing.

Down here, if you're fighting something, you don't get the bonus. In order to stop this scenario:

"So my orks are initiative 10?"

"yes"

"but only against the demons?"

"uh... yes?"

"So if this burnaboy right here, in base contact with both... if he attacks the chaos space marine [replaced oblit with that], he's I2, but if he attacks the daemon, he's I10?"

"yeah...."

Which is I guess how it's supposed to be, but it's confusing, because if they attack the marine, the marine goes first at I4, but that's the initiative of the daemonettes, which don't get their I changed, and thus...

You seem to have a pretty good handle on it, I don't see how it's that confusing.