Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The last game I played was against a space maarine player with 2 squads of 5 terminator squads one with a librarian
and the I played another game against a space marine player with a 5 man termi squad inside a land raider crusader a killed the crusader with my fire dragons but then had to face five terminaters with a supreme commander and a libriarian

damn those 2+ armour saves any advice

Shuricats! Small arms > Terminators every time.

Other than that, Banshees, Harlies. Guardians can charge if there are enough of them and an Avatar nearby.

Doom them, hit them with enough S3/S4 and they will die.

If you have two fire prisms that's two AP2 templates although they are probably better served vaporizing marine squads.

Basically you just don't want to let them outmanouver you. Concentration of firepower. Dealing with Terminators and especially Terminators + IC is fundamental Eldar tactics.

If they are common in the meta game you can't go wrong with Banshees and Harlies.

Note that with their 5++ you are often better with small arms on terminators and using AP2 on normal marines.

foxwolf wrote:The last game I played was against a space maarine player with 2 squads of 5 terminator squads one with a librarian...

Terminators are what star cannons were made for. Nothing like a multi shot ap 2 weapon to ruin their day. The banshee + doom combo also works very very well at killing them. Fire dragons are good if you can get close (and terminators are just about the only infantry target I would use fire dragons against), but then again so are guardians or dire avengers. You can overload their 2+ saves by just peppering them with millions of shot. Remember even if they end up eating a squad or two of yours, dire avengers are 12 points each while terminators are 42 or something silly like that.

and the I played another game against a space marine player with a 5 man termi squad inside a land raider crusader a killed the crusader with my fire dragons but then had to face five terminaters with a supreme commander and a libriarian.

Ummmm....so what's your problem again? I think I'm failing to see why you couldn't kill them. You blew up their transport, which forces them to disembark. Each takes a wound on a 4+ (with rerolls if they moved over 6" on their last movement phase) and now the whole squad is entangled so on their next turn, they can't move, shoot or assault. What's more, you have a whole squad of guys with ap 1 weapons standing in their face. How did you not kill them? Really bad rolls? Or did other elements of his army kill your fire dragons before you could shoot again? Regardless, while they are standing around entangled, you should move up troops to shoot at them and/or assault them (depending on what you have available).

I realy dont know how that worked out I dstroyed the tank yet his terminators came out unharmed ill ask him if he forgot entanglment next time i see him.

Yeah... sounds like the rules were "suspended" for those terminators. Entanglement is often the only thing that keeps my Dragons alive. Actually, even that usually doesn't work, as the opponent's supporting units usually hose the poor little Dragons. of course, then they're spending their fire on a 96-point squad that has already done it's job...

Back on topic, do you all really find the small-arms overload approach to dealing with terminators a good use of your shuricats?

I do it (use shuricats on 2+ save models) if I don't have a better means of dealing with the termies (or no better targets for the shuricats in range), but prefer to shoot the shuricats at regular Marines, as they kill twice as many. Termies are bad news, but basic Marines are almost as bad for non-CC Eldar- so killing quantity is more important than killing quality. I'd rather hit the Termies with Banshees, Harlequins, starcannon, or wraithcannon if I happen to have them.

harlies will rip termies a new one if they get the charge. Going for that rules thing, they may not have been entangled depending on how far it moved and they take a wound on a 4+ which they can then use thier 2+ save against.

harlies are one of the best units an eldar army can take to face terminators. even if the harlies don't all make it to them(and depending on your luck at rolling 6's) they can massacre a squad of termies. i've had 6 harlies + troupe master kill a 10 man squad of chaos termies in one round of combat! besides harlies(which are also good at killing other things in the army besides termies) there are quite a few ap2/1 weapons in the eldar arsenal. even pathfinders can be good at killing termies, especially if you Doom the termies.

oh and if the termies had to get out of a destroyed(or worse) vehicle they indeed were supposed to be entangled.

Savnock wrote:Back on topic, do you all really find the small-arms overload approach to dealing with terminators a good use of your shuricats?

I do it (use shuricats on 2+ save models) if I don't have a better means of dealing with the termies (or no better targets for the shuricats in range), but prefer to shoot the shuricats at regular Marines, as they kill twice as many. Termies are bad news, but basic Marines are almost as bad for non-CC Eldar- so killing quantity is more important than killing quality. I'd rather hit the Termies with Banshees, Harlequins, starcannon, or wraithcannon if I happen to have them.

Yes, because don't forget Terminators are more expensive than marines, ESPECIALLY if there is a character tucked in there. So the save is twice as good, but they are 2.5 times the points. Now if they were T5 or T4(5) on the other hand, that would deal with this.

It seems like everytime I have faced Terminators lately they have been deep striking right in my face with Mr. Beefy tucked inside. The answer? Small arms. Now if someone was to use them differently and just use them for the 24" shooting it would be a different ball game. That's when I would be forced to use my own trick shooting. That's also why I cry when Chaos termies can't fire their guns downfield.

The point I was trying to make is that lighting them up with the humble 12" Shuriken catapult is a worthwhile and points effective solution that should not be shyed away from. Once they are down to a couple bodies it doesn't do to not charge them, especially if you have SS/ Defend Dire Avengers in there.

Now having said that, regarding AP2 shooting you are right, by the same argument. But I have been disapointed too many times by shooting Terminators with Starcannons just to have them pass their leadership check. I would rather kill marines with no questions asked, and force morale checks on multiple squads. I would MUCH rather use the AP3 pie plate than the two AP2 blasts from a Fire Prism. Unless of course I had no other shooting available and just had to deal with them .

Eldar vs Terminators + HQ is classic Eldar Tactics. You have ~400 (or more!) points of your enemy that will rip you open in close combat, and meanwhile you have your own infantry and those huge grav-tanks taking up space on the table. Take advantage of mobile shooting, get them down to a few bodies and charge when they are outnumbered.

Either that or Eldar Tactics #2: Charge them with Harlequins.

In my limited experience so far (facing the same Chaos army 4 games, in different scenarios, with two units of 10 terminators plus other stuff) here is what worked for me....

(1) doom, with dire avengers bladestorming then an assault (defend and shimmershield helped a lot).

(2) path finders shooting a doomed unit

(3) combo assault dire avengers and harlies (my harlies DID NOT have kisses, I had a troupe leader with power weapon and just plain old harlies).

Let’s look at some numbers shall we?
5 terminators ~200 points (210 bare bones I think, a bit more with assault cannons)
14 dire avengers + exarch + blade storm ~200 points (yes I know squads of 14 don’t happen but I’m trying to keep the numbers a least sort of close here. It could be 2 squads of 7 avengers + exarch for almost the same price)
25 guardians = 200 points (not counting heavy weapons)

So, shooting at terminators
14 dire avengers + exarch (not using blade storm) = 1.8 dead terminators
14 dire avengers + exarch (using blade storm) = 2.7 dead terminators
25 guardians (not counting heavy weapons) = 2.1 dead terminators
6 fire dragons (for comparison) = 2.2 dead terminators

So while fire dragons are really the best tool for the job (equally effective at half the price), dire avengers and guardians are both point reasonable sources of anti-terminator power due to the massive number of shots they put out. One round of shooting from either (assuming the avengers use blade storm) should be enough to cripple a terminator squad to the point where they will not be able to kill off their equally priced attacker in either shooting or hand to hand. The use of either doom or guide will further increase the terminator death count.

Don't forget that a unit of Eldar Guardians with an Eldar Missile Launcher can pin the Terminators. Likewise a unit of Scouts or Pathfinders can tear through Terminators.

What units do you actually have? its easier to proffer advice when we know what your common list units are.

Nurglitch, again with your pinning rubbish. Rangers/Pathfinders, okay, fair enough, though we all know Ld 9/10 does not fail as easily as we might like. Guardians pinning Termies with a plasma missile? You must be joking. Assuming that the Termies are in plate-catcher formation, you're looking at a 1/5 chance just to inflict the test in the first place.

Nurglitch wrote:Don't forget that a unit of Eldar Guardians with an Eldar Missile Launcher can pin the Terminators.

While it is possible, I think the chances are unlikely. If you assume that the blast gets 2 fulls (or 1 full and 2 partials) every time then you kill on average .08 terminators per missile launcher shot. Those odds are really bad for a heavy weapon...funny enough, they are the exact same odds of killing a terminator with a shuriken catapult. And even if you do kill 1, they have something like a 83.3% chance of passing their leadership test (assuming they are leadership 9...I could be off on the leadership value)

Likewise a unit of Scouts or Pathfinders can tear through Terminators.

I think the wording "tear through" is a little strong for describing what scouts will do to terminators. Looking at the numbers...
11 scouts = 209 points
9 pathfinders = 216 points

11 scouts shooting at terminators = 1.2 dead
9 pathfinders shooting at terminators = 1.4 dead

Both of those totals are less than the damage inflicted by a similar number of points in guardians or dire avengers could be expected to do. However before you write off the scouts/pathfinders as viable options, there is a very important aspect of them to consider and that's range. In the case of avengers, guardians, or even our golden boys the fire dragons, they all need to get up in the face of the terminators if they want to do damage. While this is all fine and well when the terminators deep strike behind your lines (as many a foolish terminator commander is want to do) it doesn't do you any good when they are marching across the field. In these cases, the long range of the scouts really helps out. Not only can they do damage sooner, but they can avoid return fire and assault for longer. This may tip the balance in their favor over all since dead models can't do any more damage to the enemy. Another factor to consider (which hasn't been accounted for in any of my number crunching so far) is that avengers and dragons are rarely (if ever) purchased without a transport to ensure they get where they are going. This should probably be considered in both their price and in how much damage they can inflict on the enemy if you want a complete analysis.

Shooting: starcannons. it was said previously and I'll reiterate it. 'starcannons'. utilize mobility and the range of the starcannon.

Shooting: Falcon with 6 firedragons inside...

HtH: Falcon with 6 Harlequins with the kiss...jump out.

Phoenix, you forgot that the Scouts/Pathfinders can pin the Terminators. Analysis-wise you should include the margin of error for the casualties you're predicting. Since Warhammer disregard fractions of wounds, it would be more useful to show the whole curve of results rather than just an aggregate.

Again, why scouts/pathfinders?

Hit on 2s. Wound on 4s. Save on 2+ (or 5+ if AP). Ld check.

Starcannons: Hit on 3-4s. Wound on 2s. Save on 5+. Starcannons still win.

nikeforever, what is the use of comparing a single starcannon with a single sniper rifle? Last I checked, it's much easier to mass the latter than the former.

BTW guys, they are Rangers, not Scouts.

Ranger Long Rifles. Rangers hit at AP1 on a 6, Pathfinders on a 5+.

Six Pathfinders, hitting 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. That's five hits, 4+ to wound (even if the Terminators have an Icon of Nurgle...), with good odds of two of those wounds allowing only the 5+ invulnerable.

As mentioned, these weapons are also Pinning weapons.

Their wielders can use cover more effectively, thanks to Stealth and Move Through Cover, and they can Infiltrate.

The Rangers (oops, called them Scouts earlier, showing my age) are also more flexible against other forms of Infantry, particularly Daemon Princes...

Well thats kind of a moot point as the OP has not noted he has scouts or starcannon.

I often enjoyed hitting w termie unit with concentrated spider power. Massed shots plus a follow on exarch with blades for the survivors. Falcons are good to kill potentially two-three a turn as well (at least until V5). banshees/harlies work well. A DA exarch/squad is a nice shoot them up tarpit unit as well. Dragons are good, scorpions are good, using bikes/troops/and vehicles are good to overwhelm them with fire-again with a potential exarch to finish them off. Visualize concentrated DA/Wave Serpent fire with a falcon or prism dropping dragons in support, followed by an Avatar/wraithlord applying some McLuvin in proper fromage style. As the immortal bard once said "Flawless Victory!"

In fact, when properly done, Eldar have quite a few options and tactics against termies.

not a viable means for hq's, or taking out whole squads, but what i have been doing in the last few games is have a seer with mind war to take out those pesky special weapons(ass cannons and thunder mauls\2x light claws models)

pretty good chance you are taking him down, and losing 20% of the starting str is a good place to start peppering them with small arms.

dont forget that a full D.A. squad with bladestorm and doom will kill a few termies, every other turn at the ard boyz tourney i played a misson that allowed the players to start wherever they wanted, but no assualts could be made the first turn. 10 DA killed 6 termies in one turn, man was that guy angry! i did get the first turn so of course i won, but i have never thought of eldar as having a hard time taking the VPs for termies.

That mission hosed termis really badly. I did the same thing to a Death Guard player, plus destroyed all his vehicles. I felt rather sorry for him.

However it's not a great example/test of DA's effectiveness.

@Tacobake- I do recall that termis are more expensive than Marines. What I was saying is that they are not as great of a threat to regular Eldar infantry as 10 tactical Marines, since they have less shots/attacks, and they're slower to boot (although they hit at higher S, T3 dies easily to MEQ attacks either way). I tend to neutralize threats first, then go for points in later turns. Maybe that's a weakness in tourney-style play where those later turns may not occur if your opponent is slow- I've run into that problem. However, it makes victory more likely in my experience, as it's easier to roll an opponent who can't hit back effectively.

Nurglitch wrote:Don't forget that a unit of Eldar Guardians with an Eldar Missile Launcher can pin the Terminators. Likewise a unit of Scouts or Pathfinders can tear through Terminators.

Work on some armies Termies, but DA termies are fearless. Doesn't apply to this post obviously but wanted to make sure he understands that maybe army dependent.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:BTW guys, they are Rangers, not Scouts.

Back in my day when I started really using them (2nd edition) they were scouts. I also still refer to the Wraithlord as the eldar dreadnaught. Force of habit.

Nurglitch wrote:Analysis-wise you should include the margin of error for the casualties you're predicting. Since Warhammer disregard fractions of wounds, it would be more useful to show the whole curve of results rather than just an aggregate.

As you wish.

3 dice are rolled in the killing process. The to hit roll, the to wound roll, and the armor save (or invuln save as the case may be). 3 dice with 6 possibilities on each die means (6*6*6) or 216 possible combinations.

For pathfinders 33 of the 216 possible combinations leads to a dead terminator = 15.3%
For scouts (rangers) 24 of the 216 combinations kills a terminator = 11.1%

This means that to statisticaly average 1 kill per round you need 9 scouts or 6.5 pathfinders. If you translate that into points (including the fraction), you need 157 points of pathfinders or 171 points worth of scouts. So from this we can clearly see that of the two options, pathfinders are by far the better choice of the two for killing terminators.

Phoenix:

Back in my day when I started really using them (2nd edition) they were scouts. I also still refer to the Wraithlord as the eldar dreadnaught. Force of habit.

Well get with the programme, old man. Today's GW is more careful to avoid confusion like that, hence the separate terms "Scouts," "Rangers" and "Pathfin--

Wait a minute. . . .

Good catch. I just wish the GW people were so good at keeping their nomenclature standardized. Oh well, I guess it gives me an excuse to remain crotchety and set in my ways.

Now if you'll pardon me, I need to go and teach some whippersnappers a painful lesson in battlefield tactics.

(Side note, MS Word has “whippersnappers” in its dictionary. Who would have thought?)

Volume of fire is the second best option behind starcannons.

Though sometimes its better.

When I say volume of fire, I mean it. A 3 strong squad of warwalkers armed with dual scatterlasers may very well take out a small termie squad in one salvo if you are somewhat lucky, as one example.

Attrition is the real termie killer. They have to fail their saves sometime....

You'll need to be more than "somewhat lucky." Without Guide, average for that squad is 1.67 dead Termies.

Having just decimated a deathwing army the other night, here is some useful things-

Doom + Banshees=Nearly dead squad.

Prisms vs deep striking termie = nearly dead squad.

Fortuned Dire Avengers vs doomed termies (PW/SS of course) is a good match up as well.

In the situation with the Crusader and termies+epistolary first off, your fire dragons did their job by killing the crusader and if they died after that, no biggie. However, with the termies now entangled, next round I would have concentrated firepower to kill a couple then let the fire dragons shoot. If you killed enough, there's a good chance you could force a torrent of fire check on the librarian and getting an insta-kill result.