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Heya. I've been playing Chaos for the last two and a half years and I've moved on to mastering a new army. My current force is meager, I've used an escalation league at work as the excuse to start a new army. The next point increase will allow me to tinker with the idea of purchasing wave serpents for some of my squads.

I'm curious as to what are some of the better loadouts for the wave serpent. At 90 points base, these amazing transports sky-rocket in cost quickly. What are some of the better ways to field these bad boys? My initial thoughts are twin-linked Eldar missile launchers with spirit stones.

A few points of note:

1) Take spirit stones always. You should just factor them into the cost of the transport. Never ever take one without spirit stones.
2) Vectored engines can be useful if your cargo is particularly valuable but they are kind of a take it or leave it option.
3) The underslung shuriken cannon is good for additional fire power if you feel you need it. Since the serpent's primary goal is getting units into the enemy's face, range shouldn't ever be an issue.
4) Going super cheap and taking twin shruiken cannons and spirit stones is a viable route (although I would pay the few extra points needed to up it to twin scatter lasers and buy the underslung cannon so it can also be a decent tank).
5) If you are going to outfit your serpent to do something, it should perform a role that the unit inside does not. For example, if you are transporting tank busting fire dragons, your serpent should be outfited for troop killing. If you are transporting troop killing dire avengers, you should probalby outfit your serpent for tank busting. The only exception to this is when you find that the troops you are carrying do not pack enough punch to get the job done, in which case you can add in the extra power from the serpent.
6) More of a personal preference than a real rule, but I would encourage you to avoid missile launchers on wave serpents. Blast templates in the current rules are fairly bad and the krak shot is inferior to the bright lance at heavy tank killing. The only major advantage of the missile launcher is range but since the serpent is going to be a forward running unit, that's not an issue. The only real reason I can see for putting missile launchers on a serpent is if you are planing for 5th edition where the plasma shot will be considered a defensive weapon and the shuriken cannons, scatter lasers, and star cannons will not be anymore.

Yeah. Spirit stones look like a steal. Vectored engines on the Wave Serpent seem kinda pricey, but it also may be worth it. The EML are for 5th ed, but I'm attracted to the TL scatter laser quite a bit.

First off, magnetize. Your Serpent's best loadout will really change as your force (and opponent if you're not playing all-comers) changes.

If you have relatively few Serpents (1 to 3), VE are very much worth it. Preserving the vehicle is not your main concern: getting your payload there is. VE prevent entanglement, which is gold when your few transported units really, really have to make it there. If you're spamming skimmers, it's less of an issue.

Finally, I agree with pheonix's advice that the Serpents should do something the unit inside does not, but from a different perspective. Serpents' armament should fill in the holes in your army as a whole. I personally think 10 Fire Dragons is overkill, and Falcons suit them better (being a more guaranteed delivery, and harder hitters than the Serpents to boot). So the troops in my Serpents are usually anti-infantry units. Thus brightlances go on the Serpent.

This brings up another point: the TL weaponry on the Serpents is a good way to get single-shot weapons to be effective (far better than, say, with Guardians). Thus brightlances are my usual kit.

And yes, the EML may be better in 5th with more powerful blasts and a need to kill enemy Troops choices (especially the soon-to-be-all-powerful Orks)- but still only after you've got your anti-tank sewn up.

Serpents have 3 uses:

1) Devilfish. Run up, drop troops, kill enemy with mass fire, die.

2) Too many targets. Use the TL serpent as a BL tank hunter, and the squad as infantry killers.

3) Need for speed. Super speed in direction of weak part of enemy army. Next turn, drop 9 assault units on his doorstep. It's a gamble, but if you have 72 assault guardians backed by harlequins...it's annoying and quite effective.

Also, if the enemy takes your guns off and the troops are out on their own, Serpents become the Tank Shock Machine from Hell.

And I would laugh if I saw Storm Guard in a Serpent. It might work... once. Good for a lark though.

Forgot to mention- I also use Serpents to get range with my Dire Avengers in turn one, then hang out to bail them out or relocate if needed later. Once the troops are out, they usually revert to Stelek's second suggested use above.

For assaulting, wouldn't Dire Avengers still be better in assaulting out of wave serpents then Guardians, even with enhance and 2 flamers?

DA + Bladestorm + assault
vs
Guardians + flamers + assault

If you're assaulting, you would only want to do so with DAs if you were using them as a tarpit or CC support for another unit of CC specialists. Don't expect DAs to win CC on their own- they do a great job of holding enemy assault specialists (or MEQs) for your own CC specialists to then hit and destroy.

As for Storm Guard, they really stink in CC, even with enhance. They're just too fragile. And without killzones in 5th, they will be even moreso. Don't waste a Serpent on them. They _might_ do alright around an Avatar if you can keep the Avatar alive.

I have 15 of them. I converted them to counts-as Harlie standins, since I hate the Harlie concept (space clowns).

So: DAs in CC only to hold/tarpit/last resort. Storm guard, useless. Just my opinion.

Storm Guardians do suck. They are cheap, which is what makes having 6 Wave Serpents affordable. It's not one unit of 12 that makes Guardians effective, it's having 6 of them that does so.

You hit the enemy with Harlequin units in conjunction with the Guardians, then you have something more meaningful.

I'd never give them upgrades, keep them cheap and let 'em die.

I am really having trouble matching the anit-DA comments with reality as I have seen - maybe I do smoke whale shiite but at any rate, I have had a lot of success Bladestorming an opponent, then charging the next turn (or same turn IF POSSIBLE) although I carry DA in my wave serpents.

Exarch with Defense and the shimmershield - sound advice (not the only but almost) I got on this forum. The combo works. I was destroying marines, noise marines, and even termie units.

In 5th, supposedly, your roll after you lose in an assault in modifed directly by the number of wounds etc you lose by - DA would have even worked better given the unit sizes etc I was fighting.

If ones opinion is "Dire Avengers can't assault/do suck/are worthless" well...you need to change your opinion

Guardians...they are a different story. I can almost see a unit running with an autarch working MAYBE in some situations during an assault - and I am pretty sure that IS NOT the optimal way to utilize either slot or points.

Stelek wrote:Storm Guardians do suck....
I'd never give them upgrades, keep them cheap and let 'em die.

How can you say that about your highly trained citizens? Bad eldar player, bad!

Beriothien, we are not saying that DA suck. We are saying that they are not great at CC offensive. They are very good at tarpitting, for Eldar. They need another close-combat unit to lay down the hurt, while the DAs hold the enemy in place.

But this thread is about Serpents. Serpents cost so much- I just can't see assigning them to Guardians. Even in cheapo shuricannon serpents, that's at least 216 per unit. That's a lot of points to deliver S3 close combat troops. With Defenders it might work out a bit better, but it's still a waste. Better to spend those transport points on more guns, and some CC troops that can actually do something to the enemy.

So if you fill up on Harlies, what CC troops are you going to use, bud?

DA? Hawks? Come on.

Savnock wrote:Beriothien, we are not saying that DA suck. We are saying that they are not great at CC offensive. They are very good at tarpitting, for Eldar. They need another close-combat unit to lay down the hurt, while the DAs hold the enemy in place.

But this thread is about Serpents. Serpents cost so much- I just can't see assigning them to Guardians. Even in cheapo shuricannon serpents, that's at least 216 per unit. That's a lot of points to deliver S3 close combat troops. With Defenders it might work out a bit better, but it's still a waste. Better to spend those transport points on more guns, and some CC troops that can actually do something to the enemy.

My question was not whether the DA suck at CC, because stormers suck too. My question was would the DA assault better out of a serpent then Storm Guardians, because of being able to blade storm.

whitedragon wrote:

Savnock wrote:Beriothien, we are not saying that DA suck. We are saying that they are not great at CC offensive. They are very good at tarpitting, for Eldar. They need another close-combat unit to lay down the hurt, while the DAs hold the enemy in place.

But this thread is about Serpents. Serpents cost so much- I just can't see assigning them to Guardians. Even in cheapo shuricannon serpents, that's at least 216 per unit. That's a lot of points to deliver S3 close combat troops. With Defenders it might work out a bit better, but it's still a waste. Better to spend those transport points on more guns, and some CC troops that can actually do something to the enemy.

My question was not whether the DA suck at CC, because stormers suck too. My question was would the DA assault better out of a serpent then Storm Guardians, because of being able to blade storm.

I see what you mean. Yes, the DAs are better.

Stelek, I use a base of 2 units of DAs, with a Fortune Seer on jetbike. They're usually Serpent-mounted. Then I either use Harlies, Spears or Scorpions as counter-charge, depending upon the game. Add in a Falcon or two and some bikes for flavor.

Tangentially, if I'm playing all-comers (usually a tourney), I prefer the Spears for countercharge, as I feel like a bit of a cheesehound taking Harlies in a tourney. I'd rather be slightly hobbled and hurt my odds than deal with implications that I only won because of broken space-clowns. Plus the mobility is nice. The downside is that they don't deal well with larger units, especially dense ones with powerklaws/fists/whatever.

Well you know what I think of space clowns...