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I know that a pure GK army is not for the faint of heart. You're going to be outnumbered by at least 2:1, you have limited mobility, and extremely limited anti-tank. As a matter of fact, your anti-tank is limited to either Dreadnoughts packing lascannons and missile launchers, or Land Raiders of both types.

So, which is better? I can see the pros the cons of each. A dreadnought is certainly cheaper. You can almost get two for the price of a little more than one land raider. It's focused in that it'll be shooting tanks/MCs and doing nothing else, whereas in a land raider you are always wasting some sort of capability. The drawback to this is that at AV12 they die pretty fast. They aren't very mobile, and they can't transport GKs which adds to that whole mobility problem that GKs have.

The Land Raider certainly packs a punch with it's lascannons and heavy bolters. AV14 makes it somewhat survivable especially if you have more than 1 (which is true of any tank). It can carry GKs making objective grabbing and assaults more probable. It has an assault ramp so you assault out of it. However, it's expensive at 250+ points, if it is transporting stuff it isn't firing all those weapons; and alot of armies don't really have a problem popping 2 very large AV14 vehicles. I don't think there's really room for more than 2 LRs in any army up to 2000 points and each one basically means there isn't another GK squad on the table (thus increasing your enemy's numerical superiority).

I haven't really worked up which one I'm going to go for yet. So I thought I'd throw it out to the Dakka crowd. How do you pimp a GK army?

PS- I remember there being a particularly good tactica by Centurian99 on GKs and DH in general but I can't seem to find it. Anyone pointing me in the right direction will get mind cookies.

I think that at and above 1500 points a land raider is an extremely worthwhile unit. Not only do you get the AT power, but it allows you to transport your footslogging army. For under 1500 I'd say dreads since they're cheaper and easier to hide, at least for the time being.

It really depends on what kind of Grey Knight army you are running.

If you are playing an assault based army, then you want the Land Raiders to help with your mobility.

If you are running a shooting based army that sits at the back of the board with Psycannons you can get away with Dreadnoughts and spend the extra points on more Grey Knights.

Dreadnoughts all the way.

Will give you more units and thus mor targets for your opponent to worry about and they can help out in CC if needed. Also, you can refit your dreads to be apt in either role for shooty or assualty.

However, if you main issue is mobility then two Land Raiders would fit the gap nicely at the risk of getting shot up and destroyed/immobile quickly

Dreadnoughts.

You can take Chimeras, too don't forget. AV12.

Tacobake wrote:Dreadnoughts.

You can take Chimeras, too don't forget. AV12.

For...what? Please enlighten me. Yes, really, not being smart.

Target saturation. You'd be amazed how often people shoot at Chimeras thinking that they're battle tanks.

To quote "The Pentagon Wars": Do you want me to write "This is not a tank!" in 50 languages on the side of it!? (referring to the Bradley).

yeeees.

1 Dreadnought is 1 dead Dreadnought.

2 Dreadnoughts is 2 dead Dreadnoughts.

3 Dreadnoughts and 2 Chimeras is TANK SHOCK!

Landraiders just take up too many points. Take two, one could get killed. And they can get shaken, anyway. You can hide dreads, walk out and fire.

Honestly, GK is just not the greatest army list. S8 Terminators can help a bit. (chainfists, thunderhammers and Hammerhand)

Oh. So it's a 'beat the noob' tactic. lol

I would go with dreadnaughts in anything other than really large games. Right now at 250 points, the land raider is just way too over priced for what it does. That or melta guns are just too cheap *shrug*. In either case, load up on dreadnaughts. If you got an extra 250 hanging around, buy a land raider as a transport.

Yeah, I should probably republish the Tactica. It needs updating - I wrote it back in 40K 3, and with 40K 5 around the corner, figure I'll wait.

Essentially, Blackmoor is correct. (and he's a mean daemonhunter player himself, with a radically different playing style than mine). Choosing between the two becomes a question of whether you're using your GKs as shooting units that happen to do okay if they get into assault, or if your using your GKs as the really choppy dudes who happen to carry some nifty guns.

In the first case (primarily shooting GK's) Dreadnoughts have it hands down for a variety of reasons. Dreads /w TL las and missile launchers have reach-out-and-touch capacity, and fill a hole you can't fill with psycannons. Plus, they're cheaper than Land Raiders, so you can get more GK squads with their sweet, sweet psycannons in there.

In the second case (primarily assaulting GKs), Land Raiders win hands down. Particularly the Land Raider Crusader. (I've got a GK LR, but I've never used it except in really big games once I got a LRC). The ability to reliably deliver your ultra-expensive S6 power weapons into an assault is a jewel beyond price. Yes, a single vehicle can be killed in a single shot, but you can minimize the chances of that though careful deployment, smoke launchers, and properly aggressive play. The important thing to remember with a LRC and assault grey knights is you have to plan on being in assault by turn 2. That's how long your crusader has to live. Once you've delivered your cargo, it really doesn't matter if your Crusader survives.

I've always theorized that a two-LRC GK army with two large squads of terminators could be extremely sick. I might actually build that once 40K 5 hits, and LRCs become even more safe vs. glancing hits. Kinda falls into that hypothetical 9 DCA army I've always wanted to field.

Well, Since chimeras can't be taken in PURE GK armies, that option is out.

I've been building various lists of Grey Knight armies and this shooty army doesn't make a whoe lot of sense to me. I know that GK armies are always small, but it seems like such a burden to load up on psycannons. How would you do it?

Is it something like this?

BC w/psycannon
3 Termies w/ 1 psycannon

4 Termies w/ 2 psycannons

6 GK w/2 psycannons
6 GK w/2 psycannons
6 GK w/2 psycannons
6 GK w/2 psycannons

3xDreadnoughts- TLLC/ML
35 models @ 1843 points.
12 psycannons, 3 TLLC, 3 MLs

Is this what people are talking about?

Something like that. Although I'd take more Terminators in lieu of PA Grey Knights, at least until 40K 5 comes along

I've been basing the (very slow) development of my Grey Knights on this tactica that was linked a bit back.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=101214

Read through it.

Not bad, but focused on a points-denial, largely shooting strategy. Which can work well, but largely fails against one army dominating the metagame: nidzilla.

Pure Grey Knights is the ultimate nidzilla-killing army. And you really only need four units in your army to make that happen:
1) GK Grand Master - mmm, S6 Nemesis Force Weapon
2) Brother-Captain-Stern - mmm, a second S6 Nemesis Force Weapon
3) Terminator bodyguard - mmm, lots of S6 power weapon attacks
4) A GK Land Raider Crusader - delivering the goodness that is 1-3 into assault by turn 2.

Statistically, most armies will have problems killing the crusader in one turn of shooting, if the LRC is smoked. That's generally all you need is for it to survive and remain mobile. Essentially, options 1-4 on the glancing hit table matter not at all, because the Crusader's job is to deliver its sweet, sweet S6 nemesis force weapons into assault. Once you do that, the nidzilla army is generally done. The tyrants are the trickiest targets, and often the ones that what guns you do have should be shooting at.

Centurian99 wrote:Read through it.

Not bad, but focused on a points-denial, largely shooting strategy. Which can work well, but largely fails against one army dominating the metagame: nidzilla.

Pure Grey Knights is the ultimate nidzilla-killing army. And you really only need four units in your army to make that happen:
1) GK Grand Master - mmm, S6 Nemesis Force Weapon
2) Brother-Captain-Stern - mmm, a second S6 Nemesis Force Weapon
3) Terminator bodyguard - mmm, lots of S6 power weapon attacks
4) A GK Land Raider Crusader - delivering the goodness that is 1-3 into assault by turn 2.

Statistically, most armies will have problems killing the crusader in one turn of shooting, if the LRC is smoked. That's generally all you need is for it to survive and remain mobile. Essentially, options 1-4 on the glancing hit table matter not at all, because the Crusader's job is to deliver its sweet, sweet S6 nemesis force weapons into assault. Once you do that, the nidzilla army is generally done. The tyrants are the trickiest targets, and often the ones that what guns you do have should be shooting at.

Against anything else, do you just get blasted once you unload?

Not very likely malfred. Its still a retinue with two S6 forceweapons and five S6 powerweapons. Still has good toughness, armor and invulnerable saves. Once the LRC has deployed them, the Terminators should maul just about any unit and be tough enough to subsequently crack two or three more.

IMHO take the Land Raiders because if I see you taking two or three dreads as your only anti tank firepower I'm going to make a point to tie them up in CC. I'll gladly lose a squad or two of chaos marines to give my own vehicles free reign.

Arcoslippy wrote:IMHO take the Land Raiders because if I see you taking two or three dreads as your only anti tank firepower I'm going to make a point to tie them up in CC. I'll gladly lose a squad or two of chaos marines to give my own vehicles free reign.

While the idea is valid in theory, how do you plan to acomplish it? Shooty dreadnaughts in the hands of a decent player are difficult to assault. There are going to be squads of infantry in between you and the dreadnaught not to mention lots of board space. How do you plan to cover the distance to the dreadnaught and how do you plan on living though the incomming fire on your way there?

malfred wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:Read through it.

Not bad, but focused on a points-denial, largely shooting strategy. Which can work well, but largely fails against one army dominating the metagame: nidzilla.

Pure Grey Knights is the ultimate nidzilla-killing army. And you really only need four units in your army to make that happen:
1) GK Grand Master - mmm, S6 Nemesis Force Weapon
2) Brother-Captain-Stern - mmm, a second S6 Nemesis Force Weapon
3) Terminator bodyguard - mmm, lots of S6 power weapon attacks
4) A GK Land Raider Crusader - delivering the goodness that is 1-3 into assault by turn 2.

Statistically, most armies will have problems killing the crusader in one turn of shooting, if the LRC is smoked. That's generally all you need is for it to survive and remain mobile. Essentially, options 1-4 on the glancing hit table matter not at all, because the Crusader's job is to deliver its sweet, sweet S6 nemesis force weapons into assault. Once you do that, the nidzilla army is generally done. The tyrants are the trickiest targets, and often the ones that what guns you do have should be shooting at.

Against anything else, do you just get blasted once you unload?

Took a daemonhunters army including that combo to the Ard Boyz Finals and Baltimore GT. Went 2-1 in the Ard Boyz, and 3-1-1 (I think) in the GT. Maybe 3-2-0...

It's major flaw is that the LRC is essentially a point failure source. Kill or immobilize it before the GKTs are delivered, and the game will generally go very, very poorly. In the Ard Boyz, a lucky glancing 6 took it out, and then the terminators got raped by disintigrators. In the GT, I elected to deep strike the units (Once because of escalation, the second time because I figured that a Necron army had to be able to glance the LRC to death). In both instances, Stern came in separately from the GM, and they didn't do nearly as well. (Funny enough in both the losses/draw in the GT, the LRC survived. :( )

anyone else thinking that grey knights with LRCs are looking a good deal better in 5th ed? not top tier, but i don't think anyone who has been playing the current GK needs a top tier army to win.