Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

First picture of Dust Tactics from the GAMA. Dust Tactics will use the AT-system in licence.













http://www.dust-game.com

When I meet Parente I'm going to skin him alive for letting such a game go PPP.

Though I hope those mecha are salvageable, especially the Tiger variant.

His Master's Voice wrote:When I meet Parente I'm going to skin him alive for letting such a game go PPP.

Though I hope those mecha are salvageable, especially the Tiger variant.

Frankly, I don't think we're going to see much in the field of non-PPP wargames ever again. Historicals, sure, they don't appeal to the current instant-gratification mindset anyway, but for fantasy and scifi, companies will have to cater to people who simply do not want to paint anything, period.

Infinity or Helldorado (not to mention PP) prove that non pre painted games have a future. They were the geeks hobby and they will remain so. Geeks do not seek instant gratification (btw, 'instant gratification' is a bloody big can opener for all those who want to ride the PPP train. I have yet to see any of those so called 'XBoTs' to pick up a PPP)

Neither Infinity nor Helldorado have been at it for very long. Warmachine and Hordes have, however, and the fact those two continue is something of a glimmer of hope. Not that I expect it to last.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Neither Infinity nor Helldorado have been at it for very long. Warmachine and Hordes have, however, and the fact those two continue is something of a glimmer of hope. Not that I expect it to last.

In its fifth year, Warhammer 40k hadn't even gone to second edition yet. I think
it's safe to play Warmachine.

Duncan_Idaho wrote: First picture of Dust Tactics from the GAMA. Dust Tactics will use the AT-system in licence.

These were taken by Jay Aden and you can see the rest of his GAMA photos here:

http://flickr.com/photos/dullspork/sets/72157604709447918/

Infinity or Helldorado (not to mention PP) prove that non pre painted games have a future.

I doubt it.... Asmodee is known for killing systems off that don´t make much profit. And if only geeks buy it...

And Kraken has quite some quality problems, besides their miniatures being plastics.

Corvus Belli struggels with Infinity in it´s home market.

If all systems survive 2008 they might have a chance, but sales in most parts of Europe point in another direction.

So if DUST Tactics is using the AT-43 system, I wonder what the possibilities of crossover usage might be...

As for pre-paints, they have their place. Some portion of mini-gamers that don't have patience or time will migrate towards the pre-paints. However, none of the pre-paint systems yet have the depth or richness of aesthetic appeal found in the traditional paint-your-own games. GW and PP will lose some of their market share from the ADD kiddies, but not all thanks to their excellent marketing. Seeing GW take a hit from losing the Little Timmys may be a good thing, as older long-term gamers may finally get catered to again (unlikely, but possible). Games like Infinity already appeal to high-end modelers for the most part, so they are probably pretty safe.

I posted this earlier today HERE and didn't get a single reply. Just sayin.

When is Dust due for release? With all the crap going on with GW, I find myself drawn more toward PP and AT-43, CAoR etc., plus I don't mind pre-paints all that much. With a kid, full time job, full time husband I don't have much time for myself!

I also like the fact that with one system I can get a Fantasy, Sci-Fi and Weird WW fix without having to learn a bazillion different rule sets!

I am excited!

Thanks,
Chappy P!

PPP?

Prepainted plastics.

All of this stuff was presented earlier in multiple threads.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/211004.page

Dust might be due for a release at the end of the year, but don´t take it for granted since DUST is still at an early stage in the production cycle.

If you want to keep yp with Dust and its side-products like the board-game you might check the german forum (at least for the latest pictures).

http://www.at43-forum.de/viewforum.php?f=36

Duncan_Idaho wrote:

Infinity or Helldorado (not to mention PP) prove that non pre painted games have a future.

I doubt it.... Asmodee is known for killing systems off that don´t make much profit. And if only geeks buy it...

I'm sorry but who else buys toy soldiers at the age of 20? Wargames were, are and always will be the geek hobby, no matter what arcane babbling Rackham or GW will be shouting at your ear. Accept it.

And please, no "PPP are for the strategically inclined who don't have time to paint their models. They just want to play bla bla bla" If you're strategically inclined play boardgames or MtG, they takes less time, less space and have better rules. I have yet to see someone who wasn't initially interested in wargames pick up a PPP game.

You sure, HMV? I saw lots of kids playing MageKnight when it first came out. I bet the gateway drug for most of them was Magic or the BTech CCG, not 40k or any other mini game.

The avarage age in our clubs over here is 20-30. It´s your turn HMV.

@Duncan_Idaho: Will Dust and AT-43 be cross compatable? Meaning could you have games where it's a Dust faction verses a AT 43 faction?

Thanks,
Chappy P!

Duncan_Idaho wrote:The avarage age in our clubs over here is 20-30. It´s your turn HMV.

My turn for what? You proved my point. You probably all played your share of non pre painted games and painted your share of minis. I bet the fact that now you play AT43 has nothing to do with you being an "instant gratification crowd"
I simply disagree with the assumption that PPP can reach out to people who don't play wargames now. Prepaints as served by Rackham are essentially the same game that GW is giving us, it just caters for a different portion of the same market.
PPP, other than Clix and the like, will never get more fresh blood into the hobby than any other non prepainted game.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:You sure, HMV? I saw lots of kids playing MageKnight when it first came out. I bet the gateway drug for most of them was Magic or the BTech CCG, not 40k or any other mini game.

The question is, do you see those kids now playing Hordes, AT43 or Flames of War? I don't.

Thing is, you claimed that only existing tabletop gamers go for PPP, but MK itself is sufficiently to disprove that.

AT-43 isn't popular where I am among anyone, so I couldn't say how the ex-MK kiddies would take to it. The other two aren't PPP, surely?

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Thing is, you claimed that only existing tabletop gamers go for PPP, but MK itself is sufficiently to disprove that.

AT-43 isn't popular where I am among anyone, so I couldn't say how the ex-MK kiddies would take to it. The other two aren't PPP, surely?

I'm not really sure where he was going with that as Hordes and Flames of War are both traditional metal or metal and resin wargames.

Looking at the Dust mechs though I see some dreads coming.

Funny bit about who this caters to.

How about the GW crowd that seeks a game that can actually be fun for both players, not just ye old jaded burned out general?

I bought the dust boardgame, and I wager I'll get into the dust minis at some point. It all depends how the locals feel about AT-43.

Do I really like pre-painted minis as a concept? I'm neutral really. Given GW's current move to 'Red, Blue, Green, Yellow' as army types--why paint if the armies are all the same? *shrug*

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Thing is, you claimed that only existing tabletop gamers go for PPP, but MK itself is sufficiently to disprove that.

So you see those kids who previously played MK (which I never considered a real wargame) playing 40K or AT43? Cool, I'm happy that they do. I just haven't seen that myself...

Thing is, AT43 isn't that much different from 40K from the viewpoint of someone who doesn't play wargames. Both require fat rulebooks, armybooks, several units and some rudimentary pre game preperation (not to mention terrain). MageKnight was/is a collectible game you could play by buying two packs and cracking them up in the shop. You can't do that with AT. Hardly a good deal for those seeking instant gratification.

I'm pointing out the fact that while some might think Rackham and other PPP companies are aiming at a different market than GW, in reality they're competing for the same audience, just from a different angle. Thus stating that traditional wargames are a thing of the past is equal to saying "Our customer base will stop buying products in the following two years. Lets make bigger investment!".

Hellfury wrote:Prepainted plastics.

All of this stuff was presented earlier in multiple threads.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/211004.page

shoot and here I thought PPP was an acronym for pretty pink ponies (a guild from the deathwing server in World of Warcraft. )

So you see those kids who previously played MK (which I never considered a real wargame) playing 40K or AT43? Cool, I'm happy that they do. I just haven't seen that myself...

No, I don't, but I don't see what this has to do with my post or yours.

You said: Only existing tabletop gamers pick up PPP.

I said: I've seen lots of Magic-playing kids (and some who aren't kids) pick up MageKnight which, like it or not, is a PPP game.

That's all, really. Yes, AT-43 is not really the same kind of PPP game as MageKnight, but that just means you ought to be more precise in your claims.

I would buy PPPs.

I'm not interested in figures tied to one ruleset.

Obviously you can take the AT43 models and use them with different rules however thanks to scale they are incompatible with most other SF models. The gorillas in space could be used but their retro style -- although attractive -- does not fit with the style of a game like Infinity.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:You said: Only existing tabletop gamers pick up PPP.

I said: I've seen lots of Magic-playing kids (and some who aren't kids) pick up MageKnight which, like it or not, is a PPP game.

That's all, really. Yes, AT-43 is not really the same kind of PPP game as MageKnight, but that just means you ought to be more precise in your claims.

I thought the context of my statement is clear. Sorry for the misunderstanding

Chaplain Pallantide wrote:Will Dust and AT-43 be cross compatable? Meaning could you have games where it's a Dust faction verses a AT 43 faction?

From Oculus at the AT-43 forums.

"My sources tell me that the dust game is not to be compatible with AT-43, However it will use the same rules.

The stats, rules, ect. will be in the same medium, like a german shock trooper will have a statcard very similar to a UNA Steel trooper in how its filled out.

Where the difference will be, is that the Dust figures rules/weapons/abilities will not be balanced with AT-43s.

Like two full Dust German Elite shocktrooper units may have a total pointvalue of 100 points where the equivilent of two full units of AT-43 Steel Troopers costs somthing upwards of 600 points.

Also the amounts of stats on guns may be off, like a Dust AT gun may be a str/dmg of 17/4 and a Dust light mech might have an armor value of 16 or some such.

There also will be abilities that would be in Dust that will probably just not work in the AT-43 background/ruleset. Like how flamthrowers work, how aoes are resolved ect."



Remember, DUST is still in in its early rumour stages.

Actually Dust is already in its early production stages, butz it will still take some time until we see some finished minis.

@size
AT is 28mm, why should they not fit with other games? They are a little bit more realistic proportioned, but this also goes already for the Tau, so what? Heck, quite some people take Therians instead of original Necrons to the table.

So you see those kids who previously played MK (which I never considered a real wargame) playing 40K or AT43? Cool, I'm happy that they do. I just haven't seen that myself...

We´ve got all kinds of players, old and young and quite some who play AT now because the hobby aspect of other games kept them from playing.

BTW, Germany is the biggest market for all kinds of non-computer-based games. The biggest fair, the SPIEL is huge. GenCon would fit several times into the SPIEL.

Thing is, AT43 isn't that much different from 40K from the viewpoint of someone who doesn't play wargames. Both require fat rulebooks, armybooks, several units and some rudimentary pre game preperation (not to mention terrain). MageKnight was/is a collectible game you could play by buying two packs and cracking them up in the shop. You can't do that with AT. Hardly a good deal for those seeking instant gratification.

You haven´t done your homework. Core rules for AT are 40 pages and a lot of it explanatory pictures. Same goes for army books and they are actually fun to read since every book extends the universe and pushes the timeline forward. A good Mage Knight set so you could have prolonged fun cost in the end more than a whole AT-company at tourney-level, which clocks in at 200-300 withe rules and armybook. AT is very fast to play and I can teach the rules to everyone in 15 minutes, another 15 minutes for his first game and he is ready for his first bigger battle, which will take 6 rounds and clock in at 1-1 1/2 hour including preparation.

I'm pointing out the fact that while some might think Rackham and other PPP companies are aiming at a different market than GW, in reality they're competing for the same audience, just from a different angle. Thus stating that traditional wargames are a thing of the past is equal to saying "Our customer base will stop buying products in the following two years. Lets make bigger investment!".

My team is doing most of the promotion for the german speaking area and I can tell you that we partly get our players from traditional gamers and partly from people for whom TT was to time-consuming with regard to the preparation. PP is exactly the reason why Rackham survives. They recognized that the traditional basis was growing negativly and try to extend the market.

TT is having the same transitional period as when CoSims handed over to TT.

>>AT is 28mm, why should they not fit with other games?

The comparison pics I have seen make them look more like 32mm.

I had forgotten the Therians though. They are pretty cool figures.