Need help with a powerbuild for Chaos

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**xquisit**

I'm sure the members here are more than familiar with my boring 2x DP lash list, 4x5noise marines (4blastmaster), land raider, 10zerker, 2 oblit list (1500pt)

Honestly, I don't mind having a power build...but in order to make one.. I would need assistance from the members here

I have painted:
13 Khorne Berzerkers (Don't mind not using them until 5th ed, but honestly I have got so much points back from CC from them... who doesn't love 52 attacks from one unit?)
Land Raider (twin linked lascannonsx2, twin linked heavy bolter)
I bought 4x Noise Marines (each one has a blast master) (payed $20, if I'm allowed to say that)
I bought a box of the old termies, that are all metal (for $25, new in box)

So I have all those, I just purchased the termies today.. and I thought it was a steal since the new ones go for $50 at GW. (If I'm allowed to say that)

I just keep making "Cheesy lists", but was wondering if I could get some help trying to make a 1500/2000 point army for all those members that have the spare time.

If this post was a waste of your time.. I really do apologize, but I am a new commer that hasn't played for 6years. In addittion, when I did play 6 years ago I wasn't familiar with the rules/tactics of 40k.

**xquisit**

I don't know what weapons to give my termies. What's the benefit of having a pair of lightning claws?

**Ratbarf**

Lightning claws let you re roll hits that fail to wound, so its really only good against higher or equal toughness enemies. Though saying that they do work well with chaos termies however chaos termies bite, so if you are trying to build a pwer list I wouldn't include them.

**xquisit**

why is that?

and why don't i just get one pair of lightning claws, why not a pair.. what's the difference?

Grrh.. im pretty pissed.. why are the termies bad? I bought em brand new (metal) for $25.

**tegeus-Cromis**

xquisit: Chaos Termies are perfectly fine. They aren't cheesy, but they don't suck either. They can suck, but only if you configure them badly (small squad with an expensive Icon, big squad with no Icon and no PFs, etc.). As for a pair of LCs vs a single LC, read BGB pg 46. There is a benefit to having two.

Ratbarf:

Lightning claws let you re roll hits that fail to wound, so its really only good against higher or equal toughness enemies.

Not really. 2/3 to 8/9 is still a significant jump, though you did lose a combi-bolter to get it. More importantly, a PF is preferable against T5+.

**Darrian13**

@Xquisit, I see that you live in LA. If you are anywhere near Pasadena, you can drop by Game Empire and we can help you build and play your CSM army.

www.gameempirepasadena.com

Darrian

**xquisit**

Yeah I go to Pasadena City College..

I just want to make a chaos build with

2 lash princes
Termies <Need help what weapons to give them, since I have old box> WYSIWYG
13 Zerkers<most likely will give them a rhino>
Land Raider
4x 5noise marines (1blastmaster)

Thinking about adding 6-9 obliterators.

That should complete my list.

**Typeline**

Let's hit up the points count just to see how everything is going to work out.

HQ: DP, LoS, MoS, Wings x2 310 pts.
Troops: 13 Zerkers 273 pts, 5 Noise marines with Blastmaster 140 pts
HS: Land Raider 220 pts.
Elites: 5 Termies(assuming 5, all I had to work with) 150 pts.

All that comes to 1093. First off I'll ask if you'd rather go with a more shooty list or more assaulty list. In 5th the foot slogging of the zerkers might work out better than in 4th. If your looking to keep playing this through the edition change it will probably be easier to go with more zerkers. If you go this route your troops would change to something like this.

Troops: 10 Zerkers 210 pts, 10 Zerkers 210pts, 10 Zerkers 210pts, 5 Noise marines with Blastmaster 140 pts.

That would put you at 1450. At that point I'd say start cutting termies for some Rhinos. They are a little less mobile but more survivable in 5th. But for now they may or may not work out tactically. This list also works out through the change to give you a lot of troops to score with (bearing that some rumors are true, but if it's hypothetical for now we can sit on the fence for a bit).

The other route you could take is for more shooting from your Noise Marines and some oblits. This would really limit your list in HtH capability though. In that kind of list the DPs with lash become more effective because they can draw units that are dangerous in HtH away from your vulnerable shooters and can group them up for pies from Oblit plas cannon fire. Here is how the list would change.

Troops: 5 Noise marines 1x Blastmaster 140 pts, 5 Noise marines 1x Blastmaster 140 pts, 5 Tsons with Sorc (Doombolt) 185 pts.
HS: 2 Oblits 150 pts. 2 Oblits 150 pts, Land Raider 220
Elites: 5 Termies with reaper autocannon and 2 powerfists 195 pts

That would leave 10 points to play with, maybe give one of the termies twin lightning claws. The shooty version doesn't change it's strategy much from 4th to 5th if your looking to keep moving in the same mindset tactically forward. But the troops will score well and will be better foot sloggers except for the Tsons, that slow and purposeful will hurt their mobility a lot.

I didn't really examine a down the middle kind of list. If you were to do that I'd say cut the Land Raider but I don't want to tell you to toss a model you've had/paid for. These are pretty good options considering what you have, hope that it helped.

**xquisit**

Wow.. I really..really..really.. appreciate the helpful response!

**xquisit**

HQ
Daemon Prince [155]
MoS;wings;LoS
Daemon Prince [155]
MoS;wings;LoS
Elite
Chaos Terminators [200]
4 termies; reaper auto cannon; combi flamer
Termi Champion; powerfist
Troops
Noise Marines [140]
5x Noise; Blastmaster
Noise Marines [145]
5x Noise; Blastmaster; sonic blaster
Noise Marines [145]
5x Noise; Blastmaster; sonic blaster
Noise Marines [140]
5x Noise; Blastmaster
Khorne Berzerkers [240]
9 Zerkers
1 Skull Champion; powerweapon
Heavy Support
Obliterator [75]
Obliterator [75]
Obliterator [75]
Obliterator [75]
Obliterator [75]
Obliterator [75]
Land Raider [240]

2010 pts. 2x3 obliterator squads. Will take out sonic blasters most likely. I want this army to do well against most armies, and I will not be entering any tournies. I know 2x lash is cheap, but I find it a lot of fun moving my opponents models wherever I please! =)~

**Typeline**

Drop the champions. Any champs at all, drop 'em. They really don't do anything for the points your putting into them. If your going to have a champ somewhere I'd only suggest ever doing it for the advantage of access to a PF. Getting the power weapon out of the skull champ is kind of iffy but I can understand it.

You have very little HtH and a lot of heavy fire guys. But your Noise Marines don't all have Sonic weapons only 2 of them out of the 16 that can. Which is why I'm going to suggest dropping 2 squads of Noise marines and adding a 10 man Zerker squad. It gives you a more even lay out of CC guys and heavy fire guys. Then give all the Noise marines without a Blastmaster sonic weapons. Then add a Noise Marine with a Sonic weapon to each of those units of NMs. You'd have 30 pts left over then. I'm gonna go back on my previous advice and say keep the Skull Champ with the power weap and add the same to the new squad. Now that I'm thinking about it, it's a good idea.

With the points you get from downgrading the champ in the termy squad buy two more combi weapons.

Here is what the changes I suggest do to you list.
HQ: 2x Demon Prince MoS, Wings, LoS
Elites: Termies, reaper auto cannon, 3x combi weapons, powerfist
Troops: 6x Noise Marines, blast master, 5x sonic weapons
6x Noise Marines, blast master, 5x sonic weapons
10x Zerkers, champ with powerweapon
10x Zerkers, champ with powerweapon
Heavy Support: 3x Oblits, 3 x Oblits
Land raider

**PistolWraithCaine**

Since this is a power list I'm going to be honest. Terminators are terrible don't take them if you really want to win. They are a huge point sink. The weapons they have access to and the points costs are laughable, it's more expensive to give a reaper autocannon to a chaos terminator than it is to give an AC to a reg terminator. Make sure you are taking a champ with a pf in every squad, hidden pf is too good to pass it up if you have access to it. Don't take land raiders, take 6 oblits in units of 2 as your heavy support.

**Typeline**

PistolWraithCaine wrote: Terminators are terrible don't take them if you really want to win. They are a huge point sink. The weapons they have access to and the points costs are laughable, it's more expensive to give a reaper autocannon to a chaos terminator than it is to give an AC to a reg terminator.

This honestly is never a good argument for not taking something. I think termies are good. And do have a place in this list but they can sink your points. But that isn't the point.

If SM had 10 point fearless troops that are just as good as cultists would you advise everyone to not use cultists because in a completely different army they are cheaper?

**xquisit**

Good point Typeline...but what if I gave all my termies a pair of lightning claws and gave them champion upgrades?

**Foda_Bett**

xquisit wrote:Good point Typeline...but what if I gave all my termies a pair of lightning claws and gave them champion upgrades?

Make sure you have atleast 1 or 2 power fists in your termi squads. You don't want a monsterous creature walking into combat and ruining yoru day.

There's a guy at the FLGS here who uses 6 Khornate deepstriking termis all with combi plasma, 5 power weapons, and 1 power fist to great effect.
He drops in destroys a target and then next turn charges something if he's not engaged. Its funny to watch the marine players crap themselves when chaos termis show up and vape their devestators, then next turn charges the loyalist termis and beat them.

**Hokkaido23**

Terminators dont suck. Saying things like that indicates to me you just dont know how to use them properly. I find a unit of 6 with the mark of Slaanesh work great as close support, mix in combi and heavy weapons as you see fit - i.e, in whatever combination your list needs for support. The I5 together with even normal power weapons is a nice combination. If you DS them using a squad of infiltrating shooty chosen as the icon, you can often contest or hold a flank depending on the enemy. I would almost always recommend a powerfist for the unit, and a heavy flamer is a cheap option that you wont miss if you get into melee immediately as opposed to the RAC. Again, they are infinitely customizable and can be quite useful in the right situations.

**xquisit**

I wouldn't mind DS them keeping the RAC and combi flamer.. and MoS to give them a nice vibrant paint scheme of purple, orange, pinks!

**tegeus-Cromis**

PWC is talking rubbish. Termies aren't uber, and so I would agree that they might not have a place in a WAAC list, but "terrible" is a huge overstatement. They are neither a win button nor a lose button.

Take them if you like, but for god's sake don't take any Termie champions. Ever. 10 points for one attack is awful beyond words. That would get you another PF or two combi-weapons. Also, if you DS or go in the Land Raider, take the HF instead of the AC.

**PistolWraithCaine**

Honestly, what do terminators give you that a unit of marines with a champ/pf doesn't? That marine unit can actually have a decent heavy weapon too.

**tomguycot**

As far as Terminators go the Chaos ones really aren't bad. They're probably not the best unit in the Codex but I wouldn't think less of someone for using them either. The nice thing about them is that unlike the loyalist versions you don't automatically pay points for powerfists. You do want a power fist or two for some extra hitting power but having them on the whole unit is overkill. The points you save can either go towards another unit entirely or buffing the terminators up with some combi weapons or an icon for the unit.

Mark of Slaanesh on the unit wouldn't be bad either as initiative 5 power weapons definitely don't suck (initiative 5 lightning claws could be rough too). The only way I would do that though is if you were running a large unit so that you got the most bang for your buck out of the icon (it's a flat price regardless of howmany people are in the unit).

Also, what terminators give you that regular marines don't is the ability to show up behind enemy lines via deepstrike and take out or criple some of your oppoent's heavy weapons and still be a threat that has to be immediately dealt with thus taking even more pressure off of the rest of your army.

Once again, I'm not saying the terminators are the best unit in the book (that probably goes to the Demon Princes or Obliterators) but they are a viable choice in a competitive army IMHO.

**PistolWraithCaine**

I don't think they're the worst in the book because this is the same book that has possessed in it. However, I don't see how deepstriking them helps because unlike loyalist terminators, they can't have assault cannons which can actually take out a tank or other juicy target. Instead you get the autocannon which doesn't rend and doesn't have the strength or AP to take out anything important. I would honestly rather have all powerfists, s4 power weapons aren't that great. If you do give them the mos and lightning claws you're looking at spending an inordinate amount of points that imo can be spent on more cost effective units.

**tegeus-Cromis**

PWC:

However, I don't see how deepstriking them helps because unlike loyalist terminators, they can't have assault cannons which can actually take out a tank or other juicy target.

Heard of these things called "combi-weapons?" If anything, Chaos Termies are better for DSing than loyalist ones. Obviously you don't take the overpriced Reaper when you intend to DS.

Incidentally, since when do loyalist Termies ever DS? Dual ACs are something you want on the field form the beginning.

I would honestly rather have all powerfists, s4 power weapons aren't that great.

Then pay the points to get all PFs! Most of us, however, can see the usefulness of having a few ablatives in the squad.

If you do give them the mos and lightning claws you're looking at spending an inordinate amount of points that imo can be spent on more cost effective units.

On this we agree.

**PistolWraithCaine**

So you deepstrike in with your awesome combi-weapons, kill something that could be killed by obliterators on the other side of the board, and then die. Sounds great.

**tegeus-Cromis**

Now you're moving the goalposts. Once again, you said

However, I don't see how deepstriking them helps because unlike loyalist terminators, they can't have assault cannons which can actually take out a tank or other juicy target.

I have shown that this is not the case, full-stop.

I'll be happy to engage you on the additional point you've now raised, but I think I'll wait till your little smokescreen has cleared.

**PistolWraithCaine**

AC's are statisically lascannons, chaos termies can have combi-lascannons? Never knew. I also didn't know that if the chaos terminators somehow survived they got to keep firing their combi-weapons. Sorry, I thought I was addressing your point that combi-weapons make terminators effective at ds. My bad.

**Blackmoor**

PistolWraithCaine wrote:Honestly, what do terminators give you that a unit of marines with a champ/pf doesn't? That marine unit can actually have a decent heavy weapon too.

A 2+ save.

Some armies can't deal with a 2+ save like Orks, Necrons, Tyranids, etc.

PistolWraithCaine wrote:So you deepstrike in with your awesome combi-weapons, kill something that could be killed by obliterators on the other side of the board, and then die. Sounds great.

Oblits have a different role most of the time, and you are comparing apples and oranges. Oblits are heavy support, and Terminators are elites. So after you fill up on Oblits, you can still take terminators. Also for each lascannon wound you are losing 75 points of Oblits instead of 30 points of Terminator. Terminators are also an effective assault, or counter-assault unit, so if you choose to deepstrike to kill something with combi-weapons, you can then get into assault, where oblits have only one role in an army.

PistolWraithCaine wrote:AC's are statisically lascannons, chaos termies can have combi-lascannons? Never knew. I also didn't know that if the chaos terminators somehow survived they got to keep firing their combi-weapons. Sorry, I thought I was addressing your point that combi-weapons make terminators effective at ds. My bad.

Since Chaos Terminators do not have access to ACs I do not see your point. I do not know why you are comparing SM terminators to Chaos terminators.

They can take combi-meltas which are better at killing vehicles at close range than Lascannons, and they can have combi-plasma which is better at killing MEQs and MCs than Lascannons. And again they can assault the turn after they deep strike, so they are still a threat just because they used their combi-weaponry.

**Rbb**

I personally like 3 squads of 3 termies with combi-plasmas deepstriking. 105 points squad each iirc. only 30 more than one oblit.

To the poster: Those berzerkers should be in the land raider so they can charge. DP the termies. But thats only if you really want to use a land raider. Too many points.

**Ztryder**

Str 4 power weapons may not be the best choice, but a unit of I5 power weapons will certainly kill quite a few things before they can strike back (quite a few more than I5 CCWs) give them 2 Pfists and you can still deal with those MCs that come knocking on the door.

assault cannons shouldnt be firing at tanks, unless they have nothing else to shoot. and CSMtermies cant take them so its a non-issue, pay the 5 points for the heavy flamer and be done with it.

every time ive used them, they've won back their points for me.. the closer to the end of the game they drop, the more efficient they become.. a unit of 6-8 will easily unseat a troop squad from any objective and possibly win you the game. and if nothing else, they present a far more immediate threat that if ignored will shred whatever unit it charges.

they are more cost effective than a HTH chosen marine by far. 28 points for power armor and a power weapon vs 30 points for a power weapon and terminator armor. you pay an extra 2 pts for 2+/5+ save.

ill take terminators over HTH chosen any day. hell even possessed are better points wise than a unit of chosen outfitted for combat. its a good thing chosen can infiltrate 4 plasma guns 18" away and let loose otherwise they wouldnt be worth the points (and probably still arent)