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I was wondering if anyone had come across the idea of countering 200+ ork boyz with 90+ space marines with bolt pistols and CCWs using the "take the fight to them" trait, backed up by three Whirlwinds. Obviously, this list wouldn't do as a TAC list due to it's utter lack of anti-tank firepower, but you could through a few powerfists and meltaguns in there I suppose.. The general idea is that the three whirlwinds would force the ork player to spread out or try to maneuver around minefields which will cause his boyz to show up one or two units at a time, at which point the space marines charge in and grind them down due to higher initiative and strength. Also, the three Whirldwinds would provide a much needed high priority target for the orks to pound on instead of the marines themselves. Throw in an extra killy command squad led by a tricked out chaplain and you've got a list that beats the orks at their own game: numbers

Well, at 1750 with the Dark Angels I can take:

1 - Chaplain with Powerfist and Jumppack
4 x 10 Marines with Flamer, Heavy Bolter and Powerfist
1 x 10 Marines with Flamer, Heavy Bolter and Powerweapon
2 x 10 Scouts with CCW and BP or Shotgun, and Powerfist
3 x Whirlwind

That's 71 bodies and 3 pie plates. Might actually do well against non-mech forces as its just hard to kill that many Space Marines.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

The problem is, a 200+ ork army isn't going to care about the whirlwinds... especially not the minefields... they'll run right through them

Here's a 91 man spacemarine ork killing army.

Master-106
-Power Weapon, Bolt Pistol, Bionics, Combat Shield

10 Tactical Squad-195
-7 Bolt Pistols/ CCW's, Meltagun, Heavy Bolter
Veteran Sergeant
-Powerfist

10 Tactical Squad-195
-7 Bolt Pistols/ CCW's, Meltagun, Heavy Bolter
Veteran Sergeant
-Powerfist

10 Tactical Squad-195
-7 Bolt Pistols/ CCW's, Meltagun, Heavy Bolter
Veteran Sergeant
-Powerfist

10 Tactical Squad-195
-7 Bolt Pistols/ CCW's, Meltagun, Heavy Bolter
Veteran Sergeant
-Powerfist

10 Tactical Squad-191
-7 Bolt Pistols/ CCW's, Flamer, Heavy Bolter
Veteran Sergeant
-Powerfist

10 Tactical Squad-191
-7 Bolt Pistols/ CCW's, Flamer, Heavy Bolter
Veteran Sergeant
-Powerfist

10 Assault Marines-192
-Removed Jet Packs
-2 Flamers
Veteran Sergeant
-Powerfist

10 Assault Marines-192
-Removed Jet Packs
-2 Flamers
Veteran Sergeant
-Powerfist

10 Assault Marines-192
-Removed Jet Packs
-2 Flamers
Veteran Sergeant
-Powerfist

Angron gets my idea. Although, in my original idea I had like, 3-4 meltaguns and 5-6 powerfists. How many pts is that list supposed to be anyway?
If we're just looking at what we could do within the FOC, you could include a command squad and 3 veteran squads that would bump the number to 130 ish marines.

As far as the mines go, it was more or less a "kinda" thing, mostly I'd just stick with the strength 5 AP 4 large blast marker to do most of the work. Hell, if anything I was just looking for something that could blanket a lot of models for a low cost, which whirlwinds fit that roll very well.

that list is 1850.

Angron:

The problem is, a 200+ ork army isn't going to care about the whirlwinds... especially not the minefields... they'll run right through them

You're kidding me. Have you actually tried it? It's not a win button for the Marines, but it's definitely no joke for the Ork player. You do know that minefields stack when they overlap?

If you really want to field horde Marines, stop using the Vanilla Codex and take a look at Black Templars.

You lose Devastators and Whirlwinds, but gain Fearless in Assault (a mixed bag, especially in 5th), Righteous Zeal, and a myriad of other goodies. Being able to pile 20 bodies into a single squad doesn't hurt either.

For 1743 points, you can field the following list with Templars:

Reclusiarch w/ Crozius, Rosarius, Bolt Pistol, Frags, Holy Orb of Antioch, 3 Cenobyte Servitors
Reclusiarch w/ Crozius, Rosarius, Bolt Pistol, Frags, Holy Orb of Antioch, 3 Cenobyte Servitors
Emperor's Champion w/ Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds

Crusader Squad (10/10) w/ Power Fist, Meltagun
Crusader Squad (10/10) w/ Power Fist, Meltagun
Crusader Squad (10/10) w/ Power Fist, Meltagun

Vindicator w/ Power of the Machine Spirit, Smoke Launchers
Vindicator w/ Power of the Machine Spirit, Smoke Launchers
Vindicator w/ Power of the Machine Spirit, Smoke Launchers

* * * * *
That's 69 Models and 3 very nasty vehicles. Two of your three squads are Fearless, can Zeal 4-9 inches if they lose a single model, and will re-roll to hit on the charge (and in normal close combat, assuming 5th Edition handles "Preferred Enemy" in the same manner the PDF does). The third squad is still Ld10, and has a BAMF Emperor's Champion leading it, so you don't need to worry about them too much.

Very short-ranged, but with 3 Str10 5" Blasts being thrown down by the Vindicators, followed by the weight of nearly 70 models in Assault, you're talking about a nasty list (also, 5th Edition allows Troops to be scoring to the last man, so your opponent will have to kill 60 models before you become incapable of controlling objectives).

Go Black. Go Templars.

CK

As an ork player Ive got to second angron's opinion on mine fields, Im going to walk right through them and see where the pieces fall. Its a 50/50 chance of getting hit, 1/3 chance of living if hit. Ive got 200+ models, I can take some hits enroute; my boyz are 6pts a pop.

For a meq army to try to beat orks with numbers is silly. If you want to play a horde army, play one. Youre missing out on all the great options that are available to marines. The problem with going horde meq against a real horde army like orks is you give up one of the best advantages you have over them; mobility. Now that orks get fleet for one turn, they will be more mobile than you, and will be more likely to get the charge, and the charge is where orks are dangerous. The key to beating orks is denying them the charge.

The way to beat orks is simple; dont focus on their numbers, as odd as that sounds. My opponents focus on the large squads and fail to make smart tactical decisions about killing off my mobile units. Its all psychology. A 30 man squad is not something you want in the midst of your army, but if you can charge it the 120 s4 I4 attacks become 90 s3 I3 attacks, and you get to strike first against a 5+ save. Take away their charges, kill the meks with kff, remove what mobility they have, and shoot the bejesus out of them, you have a bunch of 5+ saves to overcome.

Edit: the other problem is that a squad of 10 marines will at most get 40 attacks on the charge. Statistically they will only kill 6 orks a turn, assuming 10 marines, no special weapons, 50% hit, 50% wound, 66% kill. They are out classed by ork killing potential on the charge. 120 attacks 10 kills, assuming 50% hit, 50% wound 33% kill. This is without special weapons of any sort, but powerfists in both squads tips the kill count to the orks further, and taking heavy and special weapons reduces the cc ability of the marines, plus leads the marine player to consider not stealing the charge and sitting and shooting, which is always a mistake against orks, unless you think you can wipe them out with shooting.

A horde Marine army to counter a large Ork army.
That's a stupid approach.
Do you really think that 10 Marines stand a chance vs. a large Ork mob in cc?

In the GT heat 1, the winner was Orks with 184 models, all footslogging, 1750 pts.
But the Orks lost vs Eldar.
The Eldar guy used his 10 Harlies to decimate the Orks via hit and run, tank-shocked decimated mobs.
The Ork guy got nuts.

What you need against Orks is firepower, mobility, and numbers; in this order.
Take heavy bolter Devs, Predator Destructors, Rhino mounted Tactical units with 2 flamers each (Cleanse & Purify).
With the Rhinos you have a change to burn the mobs, footslogging Marines will hardly get this chance.

The only footslogging Marines that can rely on denying Orks the charge are Templars. The Orks kill so much as a single model, and you've suddenly got a Zeal move handed to you with which you can contact his slowpoke Boyz and decrease their total attacks. It's even more effective when a Chaplain is in the squad, and even more so when he's rolling with 3 Cenobyte Servitors.

There's nothing better than your opponent's plan to soften up your squad before assaulting, especially when it comes back and bites him in the ass.

CK

Elnicko5:

As an ork player Ive got to second angron's opinion on mine fields, Im going to walk right through them and see where the pieces fall. Its a 50/50 chance of getting hit, 1/3 chance of living if hit. Ive got 200+ models, I can take some hits enroute; my boyz are 6pts a pop.

Fine if you're looking at one WW. Not so great if you're looking at three. Remember that you have to see if you're hit every time you move within the minefield. Walk into it? Check. Waagh move in the shooting phase? Check. Assault into it? Check. Pile in, consolidate or sweep in it? Check.

I'm not saying it's a win button against horde Orks. Far from it. But for 85 pts. per Whirlwind, can SMs do any better? I don't think so.

Whirlwinds are a bargain vs. Orks.
Three are the way to go, or three Predator Destructors.
Mount the Tacticals in Rhinos, and when the Orks threaten your front ranks,
let the Rhinos move at full speed, disembark, and rapid fire (add two flamers per squad).

Elnicko5 wrote:
Edit: the other problem is that a squad of 10 marines will at most get 40 attacks on the charge. Statistically they will only kill 6 orks a turn, assuming 10 marines, no special weapons, 50% hit, 50% wound, 66% kill. They are out classed by ork killing potential on the charge. 120 attacks 10 kills, assuming 50% hit, 50% wound 33% kill.

Am I wrong or aren't orks strength 3? That means 120 attacks, 60 hits, 20 wounds, 6.66 kills.. right? Or are they like WHFB orks where they get +1 strength on the charge? Pretty much, I need an Ork codex to KNOW know the orks instead of just what I've seen about them.

wuestenfux wrote:A horde Marine army to counter a large Ork army.
That's a stupid approach.
Do you really think that 10 Marines stand a chance vs. a large Ork mob in cc?

I wasn't asking if it was intelligent.. I was asking if anyone had thought of it as a tactic. Of course, I forgot to factor in their WAAG! movement. I just thought it would be a great way to catch someone off guard. You know, there's ways to make atypical lists work: Shooty Nids, CC Necrons, and a couple of others. So, why not horde marines? I think we've kinda established why not.. but can you really fault outside the box thinking like that?

Orks all have Furious Charge now.

Ahh.. now that definitely makes things.. difficult. I suppose you COULD do 6 units of assault troops with two flamers a piece and 3 units with furious charge using "blessed be the warriors". It would negate foot sloggin orks the chance to WAAAAG! into CC, but that wouldn't leave you room for much else.

Well, probably blood angels would be the best to take them on in cc. Take three units of VAS and then just take the RAS and use them without jump packs to eat your opponent. The VAS steal the charge, then the RAS pile in maybe a turn later, and then best of all. The orks get a crud load of Death Company straight up the ass WOHOO! All praise the angels in red!

The only problems with that are:
Don't Death Company count as an Elite choice?
Death Company are 30 pts a piece BEFORE getting any jump packs or anything.
The Veteran Assault Troops could only tie up 3 of the mobs. The other three would more than likely counter charge them the next turn and obliterate them if they can get enough models into base-to-base. (I haven't seen 5th ed's rules for CC, but if the whole "all models within 2" get to contribute attacks" statement remains true, I doubt there will be very many cases where they can bring all 120 attacks to bear)
Then there's points. Hell, 6 10 man normal assault squads with a powerfist and a captain with dual lightning claws and jump pack leave you with a whopping 50 pts to play with for an 1850 pt list..

With Vanilla Marines using only "Blessed be the Warriors" I came up with this list. It doesn't have near the numbers, but could still be very fun to play:
HQ:
Captain with bolt pistol and lightning claw- 86
Troops:
5 scouts with power weapon:88
6 scouts with power weapon:101
Elite:
9 Assault Squad Marines with 2 flamers, power weapon and furious charge: 262
9 Assault Squad Marines with 2 flamers, power weapon and furious charge: 262
9 Assault Squad Marines with 2 flamers, power weapon and furious charge: 262
Fast Attack:
10 Assault Squad Marines with 2 flamers and powerfist: 262
10 Assault Squad Marines with 2 flamers and powerfist: 262
10 Assault Squad Marines with 2 flamers and powerfist: 262

1847. That's 69 models and it has MORE than enough flamers to soften those orks up before the charge. All of them (except the captain) have a 12" movement + 6"charge, allowing them to secure the charge against foot slogging orks. Thus, denying them furious charge. From then on, it should be mostly up to the dice as to who wins. The marines would go first in initiative, they'd have a +1 strength advantage and their 3+ saves (4+ for the scouts) outweigh the orks' 6+ save. It's not perfect, but then again, neither is the idea of Space Marines trying to out-horde orks! lol

1850 list has not lost a game yet and it was made back in 3rd ed.

Fill the FOC with five men in each unit. Each unit has one upgrade unless its the dev unit.

hq walking power weapon bolt pitols melta bombs
command squad 2x weapon

HQ chap j pack bolt, melta bombs, frag

2x vets missle tank hunters
1x vets fist/melta gun

3x tact with heavy lascannon

3x tact with assault weapons plasma guns pref

Assault squad Fist/flamer

Assault squad Sword/Flamer

Assault squad foot slogging, sword/flamer

3x dev 2x heavy bolters.

Normally run four lascannon but sometimes I change out one of the tact units with plasma
7 to 9 sword/fist,


Just space it all out.

SW

Ven Dread with AS, HF 165
Wolf Priest with potions 120
Wolf Lord TA, FB, SB 115

BC Pack 15x 2Pf 1Pw 242
BC Pack 15x 2pf 1Pw 242
BC Pack 15x 2pf 1Pw 242

GH Pack 10x 2Pw, 9x Bolters, 1 Flamer 196

LR Exterminator with hb sponsons 195
Vindicator 125
WW 85

Total 1739
55 Marines
3 Tanks

I would sit a bait squad in front of the main force to cause the ork player to either Waaaag early, or eat one BC charge. A single charge would destroy over half the boyz in a squad, causing a LD test at 7 (8 boys - 1 for half size)

As to your question, no the death company do not take up a slot on the FOC. And you get one per squad free before you buy upgrades at 5+ points per model for jumpacks. As to the other orcs getting the charge off. If you play it well they won't, seeing as you have way more maneuverablility you should be able to concentrate on one flank and kill everything in your kill zone. (I came up with a 1500 or 2000 pt list that gave me 11 Death company for free, will post when I get home.) The only problem is you have to support them incredibly well, never ever engage with under three units of assault squads (usually only 5 man units) or your going to get killed... Just focus on one flank only and you should be fine.

Ah.. well, that could work. The orks could still possibly charge a unit or two and get that dreadful theoretical 120 attacks at strength 4, so like you said "As to the other orcs getting the charge off. If you play it well they won't"

Few small assault squads will prevent the horde from doing what it wants to do. Even just tossing some foot sloggins marines into the mix will force the charge to stall. If you think about it, the kill zone will keep the fight going another turn. So just toss a unit of marines into the mix so that you force the 30 man unit to stop its next turn of movement. Your assault along will remove or keep a certain amount of men from being able to attack ie keeping his numbers out of the fight. Next after the battle has been won, will force another fight on his turn removing his chance of WWhhaaa'ing.



Ran a five man unit of assault marines into a 32 strong guant unit. I was able to win but the point was to draw that unit into blocking the path. On both side was impassable terrian, unless you went another foot or so to go around it. It worked and keep his army from a full on turn two charge. It was an enjoyable game as I meet the nid in the middle with my marines. HTH

Key was the tactic keep some of his units from reaching my lines buying me time to pick the fights. Pick your fights with the foot horde and they will fall each time, though you will have to sacifice units in the end you will win.

Blood Angels Army List

Headquarters

Lemartes 125

Company Captain 135
Power Weapon 15
Jump Pack 20

Honour Guard 125
Jump Packs 50

Honour Guard 125
Jump Packs 50

Elites

Veteran Assault Squad 150

Veteran Assault Squad 150

Veteran Assault Squad 150

Death Company 60
Jump Pack x10 55

Troops

Assault Squad 140

Assault Squad 140

Assault Squad 140

Assault Squad 140

Assault Squad 140

Assault Squad 140