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Presumably Vespid can fill a role in Tau lists synonomous with Rough Riders in Guard lists.

But which is better?

6 Vespid (102 points)

11 Kroot w/ 3 Hounds (this would be a third squad like this) (95 points)

10 more Fire Warriors (say bringing the total to 25+ rather than 15+. A lot of Fire Warriors, in other words) (100 points)

adding a Devilfish. (80+ points)

I'm not sure I understand. How do Vespid play the same role as RRs?

tegeus-Cromis wrote:I'm not sure I understand. How do Vespid play the same role as RRs?

because they are counter-charge in a predominantly shooty army. At least I consider them that way, I suppose you could use them like flying stealth suits that are just asking for it.

Eh, RRs are cheap and actually good at killing stuff in CC. Vespid are expensive and crap at killing stuff in CC. I don't see it working, to be honest!

the vespids aren't worth it, and they are definitely not good counter charge units. they take up slots and points better spend on more fire warriors. the tau's main advantag is their basic troopers. all great tau lists i've ever seen have had extensive numbers of fire warriors and vehicles + many battlesuits to preform support roles. without the basic troops all tau are a simple joke.

Vespids are a classic case of GW's "good theory, poor execution"

Vespid aren’t a great unit and they’re probably a few points overpriced for what they deliver. But as nuisance value troops they have decent use in small squads. Have them skirt the flanks, out of line of sight, forcing your opponent to send expensive units after them, or risk having them steal objectives late in the game. If you’re confident they can isolate an enemy unit they can engage, generally with support fire from crisis suits and hammerheads, to make sure the job is done.

They’re a marginal unit but they can be very useful to a player who uses them well, especially against a static opponent.

But they sure as hell aren’t a counter charge unit. Any enemy unit that marches across the board to assault is going to be a lot harder than anything a vespid unit could dent.

Bastirous666 wrote:the vespids aren't worth it, and they are definitely not good counter charge units. they take up slots and points better spend on more fire warriors. the tau's main advantag is their basic troopers. all great tau lists i've ever seen have had extensive numbers of fire warriors and vehicles + many battlesuits to preform support roles. without the basic troops all tau are a simple joke.

That’s miles away from just about any experience I’ve had playing with and against Tau.

First up, fire warriors don’t compete for the same slots, one’s a troops choice while the other is fast attack. Second up, the best Tau lists are built around mobility, namely crisis suits and hammerheads. Devilfish mounted fire warriors are a useful addition to the list, but they aren’t the core of the list.

Lists built around fire warriors are stationary and are conceding the biggest Tau advantage, mobility. These static lists are reasonable, but nowhere near the scariest Tau lists possible.

I agree with Bastirous666, Vespid aren't good as counter assualt units, but they are very good at shooting then assualting an enemy in a single turn.

@ Tacobake
I'm not sure how to answer your question, if your looking for a unit to act witha role similar to rough riders then Vespid do fit the bill nicely

But if your wanting to know what to add to your existing army then to be honest they are all good choices but I would need to see your army list to suggest a single choice.

5th edition brings some excellent bonuses to Vespid.

If you haven't played under the rumored 5th edition rules, 4+ cover is plentiful. So much so that I can guarantee that your vespid will have it. They even come equipped with skilled riders to make getting to area terrain and staying in area terrain easier and safer.

With space wolf blood claws and black templar crusades getting 'run' you are going to see a lot more power armor rush armies. Vespid help in that matchup. Sniper drones are also excellent 5th edition ap3. Unfortunately, the longer range shots in 5th edition tend to give a 4+ cover save to your target a lot more often than the short range maneuverable shots. It is difficult to explain with theory-hammer, but the new terrain rules, the screening rules and the shooting through the area terrain you are in rules all make 4+ cover a snap to get. With vespid, you could maneuver so that you are putting your ap3 shots into marines at that pivotal moment when they aren't getting that save.

Having said all that. I still haven't designed or helped design a tau list that uses vespid. They got better, their favorite targets got better too, but whether or not they are 'A' listers is hard to decide. I would definitely encourage people to try them out under 5th edition rules, especially if their meta-game is heavily marine.

it's possible that 10 vesipid might be your best use of markerlights for anti-MEQ shooting.

That's the equivalent of 30 S5 AP5 shots when shooting at MEQ, or 20 S5 AP5 shots when shooting at 4+. Having said that, you also get 10 Fire Warriors for the price of 6 Vespid, and Fire Warriors have range.

The 4+ cover saves that help keep the vespid alive also reduces the usefullness of their AP3 weapons. I'd say you are better off with just about anything else, more so FWs or kroot since you will need as many as you can squeeze in to have any chance of scoring at the end of the game.

I'd also point out that the kroot can now flank, which opens up all kinds of interesting strategies and tactics.

While there may be ways to wring some usefulness out of the Vespid. They are definately a sub-par unit. Their weapons are good against MEQ but require that they move within Assault range to use them. The weapons are Assault but they are poor at close combat.

In the end, the Vespid were given a good weapon profile without the means to use it effectively or safely. Let's hope the next Tau codex will correct this.

Democratus wrote:In the end, the Vespid were given a good weapon profile without the means to use it effectively or safely. Let's hope the next Tau codex will correct this.

I'm not getting my hopes up about a new Tau codex anytime soon. Not with Dark Eldar, Necrons, IG, Space Wolves and Vanilla Marines all ahead of Tau in line. At the rate GW puts out codexs (codecii?) I figure Tau players will be lucky to see a new 'dex by 2012.

More on topic: I want to like the Vespids, I really do. I just can't get around the fact that they cost waaay too much for the support they can provide in a Tau army. Better off taking more kroot or firewarriors IMO.

Better off taking more suits, you mean. That's where Tau get their anti-MEq, isn't it? I can't see Vespid ever working out better than plasrifle Crisis suits over the course of the game. They have marginally better alpha strike potential, but they die the turn after. Not a good deal.

I don't think Tau players have anything to complain about, really. The current dex is good enough for many years yet IMO. They have a few stand out choices, quite a lot of decent choices, and only a couple of downright crap ones. Much better than what most get.