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Well with the coming deamon codex I was considering doing an all "Angel" blood angel army. A guy from my gaming group spent his government check on the deamon spear head. So being a christian I can't let the those demonic hordes to run loose on the table top! I would do all wings on the models and a gold paint scheme. My question is if they would 1) pack enough punch to deal with the deamons and 2) would be a descent army for 5th?

I have another guy in my group who actually plays BA but he does a more of a mech force, he said he's done the all jumpers and didn't like them because they died too easy. With the coming ruleset for 5th I was thinking that they would be able to survive longer?

You will be shorting your model count, and hence the number of saving throws you can fail before your army disappears, if you go the Jump Infantry route.

As for whether it'll be a decent army for games in 5th edition, it seems too early to say. If you mean decent as in competitive, the low model count will hamstring you, and if you mean decent as giving you a variety of different playing experiences they're pretty one-dimensional.

If you were willing to compromise and give them some support, like Whirlwinds, and stuff, then they could be pretty murderous and you could still do some angelic conversions. I'd suggest looting the Empire Wizards sprues for flaming swords to represent power weapons.

The problem with All Jumppackers is the rumored changes to objective holding and scoring units. Currently, the rumors point to only Troops that are "infantry" being able to hold objectives.

This would mean that your whole army of jumppackers would be ineligible to hold objectives.

Thanks for the sword tip. Yes the low model count is going to be a factor I agree. I was thinking flamers would also help to deal with hordes from other armies. By descent I mean I don't want to field an army that I spend many hours of converting and painting to only put them on the table for the auto-lose!

whitedragon wrote:The problem with All Jumppackers is the rumored changes to objective holding and scoring units. Currently, the rumors point to only Troops that are "infantry" being able to hold objectives.

This would mean that your whole army of jumppackers would be ineligible to hold objectives.

I thought that they were considered "jump infantry" so they would be ok as far as objectives are concerned.

As I've said before, jump infantry are not the same as infantry just as Chaos Space Marines aren't the same as Space Marines. The rulebook places them in a separate category in the same manner as bikes and beasts.

Personally, I don't think this rule will make it to the final presses. Several very competitive armies will be thoroughly screwed by this (not that some aren't getting screwed already). It doesn't make sense to not make bikes, jump infantry etc. scoring units, even from a bean-counter's perspective (bike hordes can get expensive fast).

I still say that Jump infantry is infantry none the less. The way I always read it is that they are infantry with X additional rules. Since Blood angles can take an entire list of jump infantry for example. And as long as there is a good amount of terrain on the tabe i usually do well with it. Jump behind forests/buildings to stop LOS etc etc. I find that the 5 man squad (though fragile) is best at doing this. Afterall its easier to hide 5 guys behind a small building than 10. And i will admit i have recieved many dirty looks from my 10man death company with a chaplain. I will admit though by the end of turn 6 i don't have much left, however more than 1/2 the time my opponents have nothing left. So it works its copmetative, just make good use of terrain on the table.

Apostolos,

We'll have to wait on the rules to be published to be absolutely certain, but I think it can be a viable option. Below is a sample list I just threw together for 1750 points. It contains 36 jump troops, but has a major liability in having zero long range AT systems. Its basically betting on closing the gap quickly and using the multi-meltas on the attack bikes and the melta guns in the two tac squads for killing high AV targets. Lots of powerfist goodness though. The Baal can soften up tough units from range before the assault. On the upside, it does contain 56 infantry models to complement the 3 vehicles and the 2 bikes.

Take care,
Mike K.

HQ: Chaplain (1#, 120 Pts)
1 Chaplain @ 120 Pts
...in Power Armour
1 ...in Power Armour @ [120] Pts
Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol; Crozius Arcanum; Rosarius
1 Rosarius @ [0] Pts
1 Jump Pack @ [20] Pts

: Death Company (5#, 25 Pts)
5 Death Company @ 25 Pts
Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol; Chainsword (x5); Jump Packs; Furious Charge

Troops: Assault Squad (10#, 275 Pts)
9 Assault Squad @ 275 Pts
Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x9); Chainsword (x9)
1 Sergeant @ [53] Pts
Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x1); Power Fist

Troops: Assault Squad (10#, 275 Pts)
9 Assault Squad @ 275 Pts
Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x9); Chainsword (x9)
1 Sergeant @ [53] Pts
Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x1); Power Fist

Troops: Assault Squad (10#, 275 Pts)
9 Assault Squad @ 275 Pts
Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x9); Chainsword (x9)
1 Sergeant @ [53] Pts
Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x1); Power Fist

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 280 Pts)
9 Tactical Squad @ 280 Pts
Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x9); Bolter (x8); Meltagun
1 Blood Angels Rhino @ [55] Pts
Storm Bolter; Extra Armor; Over-charged Engines; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers
1 Sergeant @ [48] Pts
Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x1); Power Fist

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 280 Pts)
9 Tactical Squad @ 280 Pts
Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x9); Bolter (x8); Meltagun
1 Blood Angels Rhino @ [55] Pts
Storm Bolter; Extra Armor; Over-charged Engines; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers
1 Sergeant @ [48] Pts
Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x1); Power Fist

Heavy Support: Baal Predator (1#, 125 Pts)
1 Baal Predator @ 125 Pts
Twin Linked Assault Cannon; Heavy Bolter (x2); Over-charged Engines; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

Fast Attack: Attack Bike Squadron (1#, 50 Pts)
1 Attack Bike Squadron @ 50 Pts
Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x1); Twin Linked Bolter (x1); Multi-Melta (x1)

Fast Attack: Attack Bike Squadron (1#, 50 Pts)
1 Attack Bike Squadron @ 50 Pts
Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolt Pistol (x1); Twin Linked Bolter (x1); Multi-Melta (x1)

Just wait till 5th Edition hits so you absolutely know that Jump Troops are going to be scoring units or not if they're Troops.

I think the idea of an all Jump Army is probably one of the selling points of playing blood angels and it would look really nice on the table, and given what 5th is potentially doing it could be a really kick ass army too.

@PanzerLeader
why would you not take veteran squads? They are 10pts more for 2 base attacks instead of 1?

Valid point with the VAS. One thing I will have to do is run a Mephiston. The reason that I wanted to model he myself, not a fan of the "devil" model. My army theme is a "heavenly" army of winged angels. It won't do to have it lead by a HQ with horns! They will have a gold paint scheme as well. If I am going to spend the time modeling and paint up a nice HQ I want him hold his own in combat which mephiston can.

I think we can all agree that the weak point of the army is not being shot up the first 2 turns. If they avoid that than they have a good chance for the win.

@PanzerLeader, Well my friend I was playing with 2 rhinos & 2 predators and I ran your SBF wrong and it cost me dearly. I lost to jump marines fists in the rear armor. I was thinking if I had jumpers of my own to guard against them I would do better. Also those tanks can be a moblie terrain to get the jumpers down the field.

While I am very strongly of the opinion that Jump Infantry are NOT the same thing as Infantry, I very much expect any non-vehicle Troops unit to be scoring in 5th. That’s what’s in the leaked PDF, and while more recent rumors have suggested it might only be Infantry, I strongly doubt it.

Several of the newer codices have included ways to take non-Infantry as Troops (Blood Angels, Ravenwing DA, Eldar jetbikes and most recently Ork biker nobs in an army led by a warboss), and a fair number of older codices have them too (Hormagaunts being Beasts, for example).

There’s no telling for sure until July unless there’s another PDF leak, but I wouldn’t worry too much about it if you like the army concept.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Chaos Space Marines aren't the same as Space Marines.

That's a damn lie!

@ Red Lives: I probably would have taken VAS somewhere if I had spent more time looking at the list before hand. My mistake. I just quickly threw together something to see if it could be viable in terms of number of troop choices and number of models. I haven't spent any time trying to refine the list yet.

@ Apostolos: Post or PM me the details and we'll AAR it. See if we can come up with any good lessons learned or if this one needs to be attributed to dice.

(Edited because of really bad spelling)

whitedragon wrote:The problem with All Jumppackers is the rumored changes to objective holding and scoring units. Currently, the rumors point to only Troops that are "infantry" being able to hold objectives.

This would mean that your whole army of jumppackers would be ineligible to hold objectives.

Untrue. Leaked pdf page 85:
"An army’s scoring units are all the units that come from its Troops allowance. There are only three exceptions when a unit of Troops does not count as scoring:
• if it is falling back at the end of the game
• if it is a vehicle
• if it has a special rule specifying it never counts as scoring."

So jump pack troops would be just as good as bike troops, cav troops, or foot troops.

untrue - this information is newer than the leaked PDF.

Im thinking however the rule will include jump/jet infantry as subsets of infantry since there will be no escalation

I'm inclined to write off the rumour that only Infantry Troops will be able to capture objectives as so much fan hysteria, particularly considering at least two 5th edition compatible books include armies (Saim Hann and the Ravenwing) that shouldn't have to include infantry. Also, Brimstone on Warseer is quite careful in his Rumour Roundup to point out that: "Only non vehicle non swarm troop choices are scoring units (Note I did not say infantry)"

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120617

So go for it. The worst that happens is you'll need to plump out the army with a couple of Tactical Squads to play in official venues.

Interesting that when a rumour is not to your liking, it's mere conjecture/unhatched chicken-counting, but when it is, you consider it a sure enough thing to recommend that someone spend hundreds of dollars based on it.

Will non-Infantry Troops score? I can't say for sure, and neither can you. The smart thing to do is wait and see.

Mannahnin wrote:While I am very strongly of the opinion that Jump Infantry are NOT the same thing as Infantry, I very much expect any non-vehicle Troops unit to be scoring in 5th. That’s what’s in the leaked PDF, and while more recent rumors have suggested it might only be Infantry, I strongly doubt it.

Several of the newer codices have included ways to take non-Infantry as Troops (Blood Angels, Ravenwing DA, Eldar jetbikes and most recently Ork biker nobs in an army led by a warboss), and a fair number of older codices have them too (Hormagaunts being Beasts, for example).

There’s no telling for sure until July unless there’s another PDF leak, but I wouldn’t worry too much about it if you like the army concept.

don't forget the Ork char that makes regular Warbikers Troop.

Eldar are going to degenerate into Eldradtar with fearless Guardians and Dire Avengers if they can't keep a couple squads of bikes around. No disrespect to pathfinders, which are not everyone's cup of tea.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Interesting that when a rumour is not well-supported by reliable sources, it's mere conjecture/unhatched chicken-counting, but when it is, you consider it a sure enough thing to recommend that someone spend hundreds of dollars based on it.

Corrected that for you. Say what you will about Brimstone, he's reliable when it comes to rumours.

Have to back Nurglitch on this, both for the reasons I gave above and on the reasoning that Brimstone is a reliable source. Of course, wait and see is always safe advice.

On a similar note, here's a 1500 point ba jump pack list I've been hoping would some day be competative - do you think 5th will do it?

Chaplain - Jump Pack

7 X Death Company - Jump Packs

5 X VAS - Powerfist, 2 X Meltagun

5 X VAS - Powerfist, 2 X Meltagun

5 X Assault Marines - Powerfist

5 X Assault Marines - Powerfist

5 X Assault Marines - Powerfist

5 X Assault Marines - Powerfist

Baal Predator - HB Sponsons

Baal Predator - HB Sponsons

Assuming jump troop are scoring units of course - if not this is obv not going to work.

Nurglitch, Mannahnin, yes, Brimstone is a reliable source, but that just means that when he says X is as such as far as he knows, then it is probably true at the time. Changes may still render these reliable reports false in due time, and it's clear that when he posted these in January, things may not have been set in stone (he says sniper rifles becoming rending is "probable). The only safe advice is to wait.

Cereabton, if you only run two tanks....

Your Baals are going to die.

Really? I tend to think the 37 jump packed marines present a fairly distracting target. Having said that, you're right that the tanks are fragile, but at 1500 I don't really have the points for a third.

True... but you could drop the packs on one of the jump squads and grab a razorback with a lascannon or somethin to spread out the anti tank love, or you could jump rush his anti tank too I guess. (and I find that Baals get targeted awfully fast, something about a twinlinked ass cannon... Oh that and then your opponents like to say they just kicked you in the... I think you get the picture)

True... but you could drop the packs on one of the jump squads and grab a razorback with a lascannon or somethin to spread out the anti tank love

They can't take a Razorback, and the two vehicles don't really compete for the same firepower anyway.

I think the jump pack marines are enough of a target. There are very few armies that are going to ignore all those jump packs. If anything they are doing you a favour since they are mostly anti-infantry anyway.