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Or else I'd be plotting some eButcher. And because 76 points is fewer than
106, then I'm not plotting for the Old Witch.

And because oomiestompa said that Vlad and Doom Reavers can defend each
other from spells and shooting...

So the question is: What Khadoran warjacks fill the 250 pt. gap (assuming
just one unit of Doom Reavers)?

I don't use jacks at 750. Right now they are all troop only eIrusk lists. And when fenris comes out i shall throw down an all weapon master 750 eButch. With only 1 jack.

I don't use jacks at 750. Right now they are all troop only eIrusk lists. And when fenris comes out i shall throw down an all weapon master 750 eButch. With only 1 jack.

I like jacks. It's not the most efficient way to play, but I
don't mind having them.

They are just not points optimal in most cases. For example 5 ulans are more points effective than a spriggy for the same cost.

malfred wrote:Or else I'd be plotting some eButcher. And because 76 points is fewer than
106, then I'm not plotting for the Old Witch.

And because oomiestompa said that Vlad and Doom Reavers can defend each
other from spells and shooting...

So the question is: What Khadoran warjacks fill the 250 pt. gap (assuming
just one unit of Doom Reavers)?

A Spriggan and a Destroyer would be my picks, but that's 8 points over. So take one of those two and a Kodiak.

Ooh.

Lend me models for a proxy battle?

You can touch my Feora...

I got only one-uh burnin' desire
Let me stand next to your Feora

Anyways, yeah, you can borrow my figs.

I'd also recommend a destroyer for that AOE template and a good axeblow for time to time, and a Kodiak for the ka-razy melee madness factor, the steam vent, and the rough terrain ignoring.

Some open hands in a game =more fun in a game (generally).

Or if you really like power slamming things that normally can't be power slammed then consider taking a marauder.

Then again I don't play to win, I play to have fun and to me having fun means having lots of different things to do in a fight.

Well, you can (almost) fit 3 'zerkers into 250 points (it's 252). Or you can just run two, and squeeze in a drakun with dismount. That would certainly fit the crazy-go-nuts theme, and I like 'zerkers with Vlad.

OTOH, a Kodiak and either a Destroyer or Spriggan (or Devastator), depending on your tactics. Destroyer and Kodiak is a pretty take-all-comers combo (basically like the juggy and Destroyer, only with more freebies). If yer hankerin for a whuppin', though, I'd go with either the Spriggan or Devastator + Kodiak.

Though three 'zerkers could be a LOT of fun. BOOM!

Vlad
Fenris
Doomreavers
Spriggan
Kodiak

Should be about 150 dollars.

buying stuff!

I was going to suggest a Destroyer. Although I was glad to read the thread, because I have had the same thoughts myself. Spriggan and Kodiak, eh? Hmm.

You can slam with Jacks.

And both the Spriggan and the Kodiak are slamming MACHINES.

If you can find one (though it's hard at this point), try to get a Katrina benefit Vlad instead of the regular "Dancing With the Stars" Vlad. Just a hideous sculpt.

No matter how you slice it troop models are more effective than jacks for the same cost. For example 5 uhlans are better than a spriggy in almost all aspects. They will kill more modles and since there is 5 of them their staying power is about the same. 2 Mortars and MoWDC are better than a destroyer for about the same cost. Troops also don't require focus to beable to charge anything. And with such casters as eIrisk the gap continues to widen.

I believe I'm experiencing deja vu...

yeah but ....

but...?

Jacks being cool > infantry being effective.

Malfred wants his 'jacks, so it's irrelevant that infanty is more power-gaming effective. And I would agree with him.

Perhaps we won't win tournaments, but we can hug our giant steam-powered robots for comfort.

Troops give up soul tokens, suffer morale problems, and can't be repaired or boosted. And most of them can't throw stuff into other stuff or head butt or otherwise MAKE A GAME WAY MORE FUN.

And of Course 5 Uhlans are better than a jack. They happen to be five Uhlans! Thats a max unit of cav man! But they can't use flashbangs or flares!

Finally having an all trooper army means no mangled metal.

There is an attitude that not having an insanely optimized, one shot, six stage, omnidirectional, inevitable, mousetrap of an assassin list army somehow means that you have foolishly wasted your life building 500 points of pure, 24 karat, hand rolled, fine, cuban fail. That attitude has been shown, under laboratory conditions, to cause cancer of the fun gland.

Really.

... said palaeomerus, before spending many years as a poster on dakkadakka.

malfred just hit 16k. HOW HIGH CAN YOU GO.

Red_Lives wrote:but...?

But some of us like using giant steam powered robots in our games about giant steam powered robots?

And Malf, I've dusted off my Cygnar army if you're looking for someone to beat up on.

well forgive me for not wanting to purpously gimp myself? And troops can be fun too my friends. How about a "foam at the mouth" khador list? Complete with eButch 2x doom reavers, fenris, yuri, 2 manhunters, Democore, and a drakun? Tell me that doesn't sound fun?

Red_Lives wrote:well forgive me for not wanting to purpously gimp myself? And troops can be fun too my friends. How about a "foam at the mouth" khador list? Complete with eButch 2x doom reavers, fenris, yuri, 2 manhunters, Democore, and a drakun? Tell me that doesn't sound fun?

Not saying all troops can't be fun, but Malfred was looking for Jacks to put in his list, and seemed against all infantry. And giant robots are fun too.

Thanatos73 wrote:

Red_Lives wrote:but...?

But some of us like using giant steam powered robots in our games about giant steam powered robots?

And Malf, I've dusted off my Cygnar army if you're looking for someone to beat up on.

Woah.

Where do you play these days?

Just like every other army I play, I wouldn't mind being
able to play tons of infantry with Khador someday. But I'm
drawn to different armies for different reasons, and that
determines my base army list, then I ask for advice on
how to fill the rest.

For instance, I was drawn to Protectorate of Menoth for its
infantry, so I have a crap-ton of infantry for that list.

I was drawn to privateers for Bart and gunjacks, so I have
Bart, MacNeill, Sea Dogs, Hawk, a mule, a buccaneer, and
a mariner.

Cryx? It was trying to find ways to use Black Ogrun with
a Bokur. I'm still figuring that one out. It's fun to use
with Skarre and scrapthralls as a focus factory, though.

Red_Lives wrote:well forgive me for not wanting to purpously gimp myself? And troops can be fun too my friends. How about a "foam at the mouth" khador list? Complete with eButch 2x doom reavers, fenris, yuri, 2 manhunters, Democore, and a drakun? Tell me that doesn't sound fun?

btw: I'm not planning for 750 yet.

Red_Lives wrote:well forgive me for not wanting to purpously gimp myself?

Granted, being a Khadoran player, you don't have the ubiquitious arc-node jacks that the other factions use, nor do you have the jacks that some players consider auto-include (devouts, renegades etc) and E-Irusk boosts infantry so much that you're probably better taking more men - but arbitrarily discounting jacks as gimping your army smacks of rigid thinking. While Jacks are not as points or focus efficient on a pure points for points killing aspect - you're missing the other things that Jacks bring to your army...

1. Power attacks, slam and 2 handed throw. Need to knock down that high defense target? Slam something into it. Always useful. 2 handed throw is often a game winner. The only slam outside of Jacks available to Khador is the Kovnick (and to a lesser extent, the Ogrun Bokur).

1a. Trample might seem lame, but don't forget that you can bust out a range 11 trample on our buddy the Berserker, plowing through an entire army under the effects of Vlad's feat and Signs and Portents, racking up potentially huge damage and MAT bonuses, only to smite the enemy caster twice and then explode with a 50% chance. I once punched Siege (overchage 4) in the face twice at MAT+6/+7 and RAT+6/+7 and then finished him off by blowing up. Awesomesacue. Berserker tramples with Superiority or Total War+Unearthly Rage are also insane. While you might Poo Poo the Spriggan for having less (anti-personnel) hitting power than the Uhlans, he's much more capable at busting up hard targets hiding behind the squish stuff with his boostable lance hits after steam-roll.

2. Boostable attacks. While a mortar has longer range, and bigger AOE splash (but ultimately less mobile), you can't boost the blast damage like you can with the Destroyer. Under the butcher's feat or signs and portents, you can chuck out some pretty strong boosted blasts... more than enough to maim elusive back-field targets like Caine, Severius or Sorscha if they get caught in the blast.

3. Area denial. The Devestator is walking area denial. The ability to open and smite huge portions of your opponents army is very disruptive. On top of that, Irusk's superiority makes it a fast moving, un-knock-downable area denial... the fact that he can bust open and execute a full range of power attacks is just gravy.

4. Auto-hit. Khador has two jacks that have autohitting un-removable weapons! Rain of Death and Vent Steam can not be disabled. A seperate note is that your own Warjacks make great AOE / spray targets. The high ARM means you are unlikely to damage it, and the low DEF means that they are great auto-targeters for your shooters.

Jacks aren't the most potent killers, point for point, but I'd never go without the flexibility they bring to an army, unless the army is specifically tuned to not use them (i.e. The High Reclaimer / Testament of Menoth).

Also, if I want to use armies in the league I have to be
ready to include warjacks to play the league scenarios.
There are several that require heavy warjacks to gain
objectives.

I think you guys misunderstand, i too almost own every khador jack. Except the zerker, that thing never appealed to me. But when i usually field them in place of more powerful infantry units, cav etc. I often find myself saying, damn i wish i had by cav, demo core etc. And i can too boost damage on a mortar... eIrusk my friend.

Red_Lives wrote:I think you guys misunderstand, i too almost own every khador jack. Except the zerker, that thing never appealed to me. But when i usually field them in place of more powerful infantry units, cav etc. I often find myself saying, damn i wish i had by cav, demo core etc. And i can too boost damage on a mortar... eIrusk my friend.

I'm not sure what there is to misunderstand. You are making broad statements - "Jacks are less useful than infantry/cavalry" - backing it up with what is arguably a very narrow point of view, since your examples have basically restricted your arguement to Khador as a faction, 750+ size games, and E-Irsuk for synergies...

I don't see how this is a particularly good arguement on why players should not include jacks in his army instead of more infantry.

Granted, different strokes for different folks. With my all infantry High-Reclaimer army, I definitely felt the lack of power attacks. On top of that, once you get past the initial shock of Silent Bob coming at you with 20+ focus, you realize that the silent one is really a cruddy caster... definitely not in the same league as Super Irusk's command abilities. YMMV.