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Ello's i just restarting WH40k after not playing it for many years (i played rogue trader and then the first box set editions) and have started buying/painting up an army im putting together. I allways loved eldar before, and most my old models are broke/badly painted/just plain old so im starting again from scratch.
So far i have bought a squad of banshee's and begining painting those (while reading through codex eldar and the 4th edition rules+chatting to friend to form a basis for what i will buy after this to fill out my army.)

And this is my plan for a 1500pt eldar army id like to build so far...

-HQ-
Eldrad (210)
Avatar (155)

-TROOP-
Dire Avengersx10 (inc- Exarch with 2 shuriken catapaults and Bladestorm) (152)
Dire Avengersx10 (inc- Exarch with 2 shuriken catapaults and Bladestorm) (152)

-ELITE-
Howling Bansheex6 (inc- Exarch with executioner and warshout) (123)
Harlequins x7 (inc- Troop Leader and Seer, all with kiss) (200)
Fire Dragons x6 (inc- Exarch with firepike, tankbusters, crackshot) (136)

-SUPPORT-
Falcon x1 (shuriken cannon, Holofield) (155)
Wraithlord x1 (2x shuriken catapaults+missile launcher) (115)
Wraithlord x1 (2x flamer+ shuriken cannon (100)

Total cost = 1498

Plan would be to have Eldrad and/or the harlequin seer near the 2 wraithlords to provide the wraithsense thingy as much as possible and hopefully use the wraithlords/avatar to draw fire (and be slightly infront) as i march up table, with fire dragons in the falcon to jump out and aim for terminators/vehicle type things.
Rest id need to improvise as i play and learn as i go


Any advice/comments would be appreciated on my army build
However, having already bought a 6 banshee squad already im pretty 'set' on using them in whatever army i put together.

The Eldrad/Avatar combo is really mean, the DA squads can walk in the Avatar's fearless bubble while the Harlies can take on any unit threating the moving bubble.
The Banshees are negligible, but if you want them take them.
The Fire Dragons need no upgrades but the Wraithlords are poorly configured, equip them for anti tank.

wuestenfux wrote:The Eldrad/Avatar combo is really mean, the DA squads can walk in the Avatar's fearless bubble while the Harlies can take on any unit threating the moving bubble.
The Banshees are negligible, but if you want them take them.
The Fire Dragons need no upgrades but the Wraithlords are poorly configured, equip them for anti tank.

Removing the Harlequin troop leader would free up 40 points(38, plus the 2 i had left over anyway)... seems enough to re-equip both wraithlords with a starcannon each (instead of missile launcher and shuriken cannon) with 15 left over.. could grab another shuriken cannon on one too.

So id change..

Harlequins x6 (with seer)
Wraithlord x1 with catapults, starcannon, shuriken cannon
Wraithlord x2 with catapults, starcannon.

or something like that

WLs should almost always be EML + BL. You need the ranged AT, and they're good for MC-hunting too. It's well worth dropping the totally unnecessary FD Exarch to get the points. The Banshee Exarch is also unnecessary. Also, the WLs should both have dual flamers. There's never a reason to fire the catapults.

Thanks for the advice
I dont really have the points for EML+BL on the wraithlords without dropping something else further, and i cant really see anything id want to really drop
Ive removed fire dragon exarch powers, and banshee exarch powers.. both units can do what they do so well that those particular powers are perhaps not needed when it could give me those BL on each wraithlord (also added spirit stones on Falcon)


-HQ-
Eldrad (210)
Avatar (155)

-TROOP-
Dire Avengersx10 (inc- Exarch with 2 shuriken catapaults and Bladestorm) (152)
Dire Avengersx10 (inc- Exarch with 2 shuriken catapaults and Bladestorm) (152)

-ELITE-
Howling Bansheex6 (inc- Exarch with executioner) (118)
Harlequins x6 (inc- Seer, all with kiss) (162)
Fire Dragons x6 (inc- Exarch with firepike) (116)

-SUPPORT-
Falcon x1 (shuriken cannon, shuriken cannon, Holofield, spirit stones) (175)
Wraithlord x1 (2x flamer+BL) (130)
Wraithlord x1 (2x flamer+BL) (130)

Total cost = 1500

You don't get it. The FD Exarch him/herself is unnecessary. Useless. Pointless. Overkill. Those are points wasted making a throwaway squad more expensive than it needs to be. You have 6 meltaguns in a squad--what is the extra Exarch killiness for? What, you want to shoot at a Land Raider and blow it up three times over? The thing's only going to die once, man.

The Banshee Exarch is not as bad a choice, but still unnecessary. They're footslogging (not great, but never mind that) and you have Eldrad--Doom, hello? You can do without the Exarch upgrade.

T.Cromis is right about the WL, brightlance and eml is the best combo.
Moreover, Exarchs are unnecessary.
Keep the Banshees back for counter-strike. They are not the best choice though.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:You don't get it. The FD Exarch him/herself is unnecessary. Useless. Pointless. Overkill. Those are points wasted making a throwaway squad more expensive than it needs to be. You have 6 meltaguns in a squad--what is the extra Exarch killiness for? What, you want to shoot at a Land Raider and blow it up three times over? The thing's only going to die once, man.

The Banshee Exarch is not as bad a choice, but still unnecessary. They're footslogging (not great, but never mind that) and you have Eldrad--Doom, hello? You can do without the Exarch upgrade.

Can see the point on fire dragons exarch (id already stripped him of abilities), as they will be 'throwaway' as you put it. So i will likley remove the exarch and see what the points can be better spent on. But that alone wont be enough points to buy EML on the wraithlords and i dont think there is anything else id really want to drop to try get those.. perhaps some flacon upgrades...


Another thing im considering (which i know wont be popular :p) is replacing Harlequins with Scorpions (and using the free'd up points to increase scorp/banshee squad sizes a bit, or adding missiles to wraithlords)

Thoughts on these idea's?

(btw Banshee's are the 'only' part of my army that i have bought so far and i love them, if i change banshee's at all it will be to increase squad size i think, i wont be dropping them or removing exarch, and i already started painting exarch with executioner so i wont change her weapon either now :p)

Fire Dragon Exarch won't be pointless in 5th ed though? Tanks get a hell of a lot harder soon. Some mathhammer ahead: With his setup the Exarch has a ~41% chance to get an PenAP1 hit on a cruising Waveserpent, and each regular Dragon has a ~16% chance. That's 121% chance of a PenAP1 hit for the squad.

6 naked Dragons would each have ~11% chance of an PenAP1 hit for a combined total of 66% chance of getting a PenAP1 hit on the Serpent.

That's near a 100% factor of increased performance for less than a 33% increase in base cost of the unit.

What about a smoked Land Raider, assuming 5+ cover.
At 12" the Exarch has ~14% chance of a PenAP1 hit and a ~14% chance of a GlanceAP1 hit.
The Regular Dragons have ~7.4% each respectively. Total: ~51% chance you'll get a PenAP1 and ~51% chance of a GlanceAP1 result.

Take out the Exarch and all you have is a ~44% chance of a GlanceAP1 hit. To take the math a bit further that's a 7% chance of destruction result sans Exarch, and 34% chance of destruction with the Exarch. So, performance improves by a factor of ~500% for just an increase in cost of 33%?

When within 9" of the LR, the Exarch's chances jump to ~65% chance of scoring a Pen on his shot.
A FD without Tankhunters and within 6" is ~26%. A FD with Tankhunters and within 6" is 34%.

So with Exarch, at 9" you've got a ~102% chance of a PenAP1 hit. At 6" you have ~235% chance of PenAP1. 1.175 'Dead Landraiders'
Without Exarch, at 9" you've got a ~44% chance of GlanceAP1 hit and 6" you have ~156% chance of PenAP1 or .78 'Dead Landraiders'

These numbers are indicating that against these sorts of priority/tough transports it's in my best interest to have a tooled Fire Dragon squad as opposed to an untooled one.

I know I take Dragons to potentially crack the biggest nuts in the opposing army so I don't really care if they kill a Rhino or Trukk 5x over with the Exarch added because I won't use them for that. What I care about is performance against the stuff my EMLs and Str6 can't deal effectively with. Being Dragons are a fragile unit, I want that crucial % chance of crippling damage as close to or over 100% as possible, because a one shot unit needs that 'sure thing' aspect to be worth it's use.. In 5th an FD squad with Exarch gives me that for pretty much a peanuts points cost, all things considered. Usual Monolith caveat of course.

I realise 5th isn't out yet but it does get mentioned and I think it's worth pointing out now the kinds of attitudinal shifts that will be required to previous 'gimme' listbuilding aspects for stuff like Eldar, or anyone for that matter.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:Fire Dragon Exarch won't be pointless in 5th ed though? Tanks get a hell of a lot harder soon. Some mathhammer ahead: With his setup the Exarch has a ~41% chance to get an PenAP1 hit on a cruising Waveserpent, and each regular Dragon has a ~16% chance. That's 121% chance of a PenAP1 hit for the squad.

6 naked Dragons would each have ~11% chance of an PenAP1 hit for a combined total of 66% chance of getting a PenAP1 hit on the Serpent.

That's near a 100% factor of increased performance for less than a 33% increase in base cost of the unit.

What about a smoked Land Raider, assuming 5+ cover.
At 12" the Exarch has ~14% chance of a PenAP1 hit and a ~14% chance of a GlanceAP1 hit.
The Regular Dragons have ~7.4% each respectively. Total: ~51% chance you'll get a PenAP1 and ~51% chance of a GlanceAP1 result.

Take out the Exarch and all you have is a ~44% chance of a GlanceAP1 hit. To take the math a bit further that's a 7% chance of destruction result sans Exarch, and 34% chance of destruction with the Exarch. So, performance improves by a factor of ~500% for just an increase in cost of 33%?

When within 9" of the LR, the Exarch's chances jump to ~65% chance of scoring a Pen on his shot.
A FD without Tankhunters and within 6" is ~26%. A FD with Tankhunters and within 6" is 34%.

So with Exarch, at 9" you've got a ~102% chance of a PenAP1 hit. At 6" you have ~235% chance of PenAP1. 1.175 'Dead Landraiders'
Without Exarch, at 9" you've got a ~44% chance of GlanceAP1 hit and 6" you have ~156% chance of PenAP1 or .78 'Dead Landraiders'

These numbers are indicating that against these sorts of priority/tough transports it's in my best interest to have a tooled Fire Dragon squad as opposed to an untooled one.

I know I take Dragons to potentially crack the biggest nuts in the opposing army so I don't really care if they kill a Rhino or Trukk 5x over with the Exarch added because I won't use them for that. What I care about is performance against the stuff my EMLs and Str6 can't deal effectively with. Being Dragons are a fragile unit, I want that crucial % chance of crippling damage as close to or over 100% as possible, because a one shot unit needs that 'sure thing' aspect to be worth it's use.. In 5th an FD squad with Exarch gives me that for pretty much a peanuts points cost, all things considered. Usual Monolith caveat of course.

I realise 5th isn't out yet but it does get mentioned and I think it's worth pointing out now the kinds of attitudinal shifts that will be required to previous 'gimme' listbuilding aspects for stuff like Eldar, or anyone for that matter.

wow thanks halfpast thats some very detailed and usefull information
I havent had the opportunity to view 5th edition rules (havent even got accustomed to 4th yet) so i had no idea the fire dragon exarch was such a jump in power in 5th over a regular (if i recall from last i looked at army list, in 4th edition he is only improved range with the firepike)
I hadnt thought that 5th would give such big changes.. perhaps im better off waiting for 5th to be released before i finalise any army plan... and il just work on getting a few squads bit by bit (to paint) untill then.

Thanks yes one of the big things 5th is vehicles and transport rules becoming much better. so while 6 Meltaguns can handily do the job vs most things in 4th, in 5th their potential is getting taken down in a couple of ways: vehicles gaining cover saves for obscurement or being a skimmer, and they basically go back to not having the benefit of the AP1 rule turning an armour equaling 'glancing hit' into a penetrating one.

So a Fire Dragon Exarch with Crackshot becomes useful as his BS5 shot can bust through those cover saves, and Tank Hunters for the squad becomes a better deal to ensure your Dragons's shots can get over the AV value of the target rather than just equalling it. Even when in 2D6 melta range, there is still a tangible benefit to Tank Hunters - It's not an insignificant amount harder to roll a 7+ on 2D6 than a 6+, 72.2% chance of rolling a 6+, 58.3% chance of rolling a 7+. As you can see that stacks up in the unit with the 235% vs the 156% statistic.

The 2D6 on the shot at 9" for the Exarch is quite nice as well I feel and probably worth 8 points in conjunction with the smaller benefit of being able to take 12"+ normal shots

HpY, I don't have the patience to check your math right now (and I'd rather wait for someone better at it than I am to do it, heh), but you may just have changed my mind on the Exarch and upgrades (though not the Fire Pike). Good post.

Thanks a lot TC, I've got a lot of respect for your posting so that means a lot

I'd love someone else to run some decent math on the FD upgrades when 5th rolls around because my mathhammer skills are pretty poor TBH, and I can't really apply stuff like binomial distributions properly.