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Heya Dakka folks!
I've played Fantasy in 4th-6th edition (Skaven, later Vampires) and want to start anew. I have nearly all the models for the Vampire counts army, but still, I present you my first draft for 2000 points.

It's not magic überheavy, nor with a blood knights hammer unit, the aim is a mix of horde/magic/ strong chars... unsure if that will work out. Anyways, here it goes:

Vampire count
add. magic level
master of black art (+2 PD)
Lord of the dead
walking death
Skull staff (+1 cast and dispel)
nightshroud
sword of might

goes with the skeletons, unsure about his fighting gear.Isn't he too squishy, I thought about the cadaverous cuirass, fearing killing blows...

Wight King
Sword of Kings

goes with the grave guard

Necromancer
Black Periapt
power stone
invocation and vahels

roaming free or will he then get butchered?

Vampire
Avatar of death (sword/shield)
walking death
book of arkhan

goes with the other skeleton unit

7 Dire Wolves
Doom Wolf

11 Skeletons with command
Banner of the Legion
Spears
(Lord is in that unit)

11 Skeletons with command
Warbanner
Spears
(vampire is in this unit)

10 Skeleton with command

23 Grave Guards with command
Banner of Barrows
(Wight Lord within)

8 Black knights with champion and musician
barding
standard of hellish vigor

5 Fell bats

So that's it. Changed it a bit. I think the combination of the Lord with skull staff and lord of the dead will bolster my skeleton units just nicely (+2 to cast is nasty to dispel). Is the black knight unit too big? I could scratch some of them to boost the skeleton unit a bit. They are pretty small at the moment. Tell me what you think!

Greets
Schepp himself

P.S. The character choice is pretty much fluff based, I don't like a whole vampire family on the board. I prefer the master/apprentice approach...

Ok some things I thought about:

The Vampire on the Black knights is a bit misplaced, imo. He takes away the ethereal movement of the black knights (just occurred me) and can't use his invocation powers to full effect (not much skellies and/or Grave guards around).
On the other hand, he is a vampire, thus grants the knights and the wolves the ability to march and can heal the black knights back if/when they take casualties. Would it be wise to replace the vampire with another, castier vampire that joins the skeletons? Maybe replacing him with a varghulf? Or is the loss of the etheral movemnet not that big of a deal?

Greets
Schepp himself

I'm just starting WFB myself, so take all this with a grain of salt. But I have been lurking on several VC boards for a while so I think I have a reasonable handle on how they play.

With the Lord, I think that you'll probably want to replace walking death with either an Dark Acolyte or (better yet) Forbidden Lore. Your list is pretty slow, especially your hammer unit (the GG). Getting off a successful Vanhel's is going to be critical, and right now your Lord has only about a 50% chance of getting it, and he's your primary caster. I would take Forbidden Lore and take Lore of Vampires to ensure you get that spell.

You're right about your Dread Knight vamp taking away the Black Knight's special movement ability. I'd put the Wight King on a horse and put him in here, possibly adding a Banner of Strigos. This makes him very scary to enemy characters.

The Fell Bats probably want to be 5 or 6 per squad, because they're only US1. You need US5 to kill units that try to flee thru them.

Yeah, consider a Necromancer instead of that vamp. A necro with a power stone can pretty much guarantee a Vanhels at any given time (as you can just purchase the spell) The lord might not be able to get the skellies up quick enough if you are facing a madicky opponent. I'd consider a power stone just to get a few more, as it can easily give you more than 20 points worth of skellies. I'd keep walking death, it really is an amazing power, its an extra war banner on your Vampire! I mean whats not to love :-D

Yes, I was going to ask which necromancy spell(s) you planned to purchase for your necromancer.

I do think your Grave Guard unit seems too big. I feel you should drop the model count and get another unit of something in there.

Ok,
so saving maybe 5-10 Grave Guards would free up some points. Also if I merge the Fell bat units.
With those points I could buff the skeletons, thus decreasing the dependence of the vampire lord.

The Necromancer would go with basic invocation which is not that good thinking about it. He cannot add more skeletons to the unit, so he's more of a grave guard babysitter. I should consider a vahelsnecro.

Would a Black Knight/Wolf combo with hellish vigor work? They could march and set up nasty flank charges, even though I couldn't take the strigoi banner, which I just discovered now.

Maybe I could take the vampire, make him semi choppy and then put him into the skeleton unit with the lord supporting from the back (full magic approach then. Or are vampires too fragile for front line duties? As I've said before, I prefer the flexible approach for vampires (magic and fighting) but would it make more sense that way?

Thanks for the help, I didn't know the part with the US5 for overrun...

Greets
Schepp himself

Ok, updated.
Now I've included a corpse cart and changed some stuff:

Vampire Lord
Magic level 3
Master of Black art
Lord of the dead Walking death
Book of arkhan
blooddrinker
Flayed hauberk

445

Wight King
lance
barded skeletal steed

107

necromancer with vahels
power stone
periapt
corpsecart with lodestone

190

vampire
dark acolyte
lord of the dead
staff of damnation

185

2x11 skeletons with full command
banner of the endless nightmare (+4 rank)in the one with the lord
both vampires in there
spears

255

20 Grave guards with full comand
banner of the dead legion (USx2)

295

6 Black knights with command
barding
hellish vigor (always march)

233

10 Skeletons with full command
spears

110

7 Dire wolves

56

6 Fell bats

120

1996

So, what do you say? It has a bit more Power dice (10) + two bound spells. The spears are for average enemies that can be killed by skeletons combined with the asf of the cart and staff of damnation could give me the edge in combat (or kill maybe one good enemy fighter if he negates my armor save anyways).

The Grave guard ain't so big, but have the unit strength with the banner (30-40 US is quite good for autobreak).
The Black knights will make a long flank attack, hopefully through some terrain...

Thanks for all the help until now!

Greets
Schepp himself

I actually liked the big unit of grave guard. It can do two things, have a large frontage with full ranks, and outnumber. Furthermore, if you don't need the Dead Legion banner you can use the Banner of Barrows for +1 to hit. Combined with a Helm of Command on a vamp, you are talking about some hard-hitting infantry.

I also think you're relying on the necro too much for getting off a Vanhels. If you don't get Vanhels on one of the vamps, you're going to have a maximum of 3 attempts, two of which have just over a 50% chance to succeed and the other is an easily-dispelled bound spell. I highly suggest taking Forbidden Lore over Walking Death. You don't want your vamp lord in combat anyways, he might die and then you lose.

I'd drop spears on the skellies. They're not going to do much damage, and as an anvil unit you'll probably want the extra AS more often than the extra kills.

If you're taking 7 Dire Wolves, try making one a champ. Then if you run into an opponent with a nasty lord on a monster that can do a lot of wounds, you can tie him up for a turn.

The general look of the list looks fine altough I see numerous points which may require some tweaking imho:

The Vamp lord could certainly use either additional extra level or forbidden lore so he'd get the crucial spells more easily (the ability to cast multiple dances is a game-winner but it requires the vampire to have the spell). Also blooddrinker is fairly situational. If you want a magic weapon, the standard sword of might would serve you quite well.

A battle standard bearer would be quite handy in this army as you can attach it either to knight or to gg and give them additional static combat resolution. The wight king would be perfect for bsb as he's tough, got three wounds and has a good armor save. You can also give him magical flag if he doesn't get other magic items. The best choice in the armybook is the drakenhof banner which is expensive but it'll make the gg for example one helluva bunker. You can get decent cheaper banners too such as the always useful warbanner (be aware that the drakenhof banner is a bit powergamey ).

For magic defense, you should try to add at least 1 dispel scroll somewhere. For newer players this isn't alway apparent, but vs heavy magic armies you often can't rely purely on dice to dispel those crucial spells.

The wolves could certainly use a champion upgrade if you're using them 7 strong. This makes them useful as a nasty-character-tarpit, which opens an opportunity to dance stuff on them more easily. Also, Fell Bats work generally best with 5. This makes them to crossfire and contest/capture stuff but also keeps the cost low(ish). Remember that vs most stuff you can only fit 3-5 bats to fight.

Mhhh...some good points...

I decided to put the wight lord back into the Grave Guard regiment, jut because he doesn't add that much to the black knight unit. Too little for 75+ points at least.

The additional level would raise the chance to get the spell vahels from 61% to 94% if I'm not mistaken. Tricky one. I'm somewhat compelled by the image of a full magic vampire (have a von carstein theme going on there...)
But the Blooddrinker, while being cool, isn't that much needed.

The spears are 32 Points for all the skeletons, so I will give'em a try. You can still chose not to use them, or not?

I don't understand how a dire wolf champ could tarpit a character. Wouldn't the unit quickly crumble due to overkill combat resolution?

Thanks for the tips guys!

Greets
Schepp himself

Schepp himself wrote:I don't understand how a dire wolf champ could tarpit a character. Wouldn't the unit quickly crumble due to overkill combat resolution?

Well, here's how it works: Charge the nasty character with the 7 strong wolf unit with the champ (be the enemy a guy on a dragon, greater daemon, whatever, as long as it's challengable). Then move rest of your troops in positions to make favorable charges to the big guy on your next turn. In the combat phase challenge with the champ. Your opponent kills the doggy and lets say he makes the maximum overkill too. That's 1+5=6 combat resolution. You have 1 combat resolution for outnumber (6 dogs left are us 12). The big guy wins by 5, you crumble 5 dogs and 1 is left to be brutally mangled next turn but by doing so he ties the enemy character up during the opponent's turn and places him to a possibly awkward position.

Ok, I have to bump this stuff...edited the list, expected it to go up...never happened...this sort of stuff.

Greets
Schepp himself

Isnt the banner of endless 25 pts? if so you are better off with a warbanner that jsut gives +1cr, because it will confer the same benifit regardless of your rank bonus. also i think the always march banner isnt going to be of much use as you will probably be charging second turn anyway.

Wait...have to check the first part...well yeah, but I cannot take the warbanner twice, so i have to take the next best one, which is imo the banner of endless nightmare (i will outnumber hopefully and any extra +1 will be good to autobreak the enemy).

The march banner, well, I want to keep the black knights a bit flexible...what if the enemy army concentrates on attacking my core army and I have the opportunity to surround them with my knights for a tasty rear charge? But the strigoi banner also seems like it could be very effective...

Thanks for the comment!

Greets
Schepp himself

I'd reduce the Knights to 6 or so. Also, I believe the FAQ ruled that barding reduces their movement.

For the Wight King, I'd suggest giving him a horse and putting him in with the Knights. With a 5+ killing blow, he'll scare the pants off of anyone with expensive characters, and the GG really don't need the extra help that much if you give them GWs.

My personal thinking is to keep the vamp lord out of combat, as you'll lose if he dies. Instead of armor and a the Sword of Might, give him a Helm of Command and screen his unit of skellies with other units. This way he still contributes during combat (so you're not wasting that potential), and is out of danger. Maybe give him the Biting Blade for a magical attack, if you want.

I'm not sure spears are the best idea for your skellies. I think resisting damage is probably a better goal for them, letting them hold up an enemy for flankers and then giving outnumber and running them down. You're probably not going to win by killing the enemy, but by outnumbering with Fear.

perhaps im just not seeing it, but i dont see a warbanner in your revised list is the only reason i brought it up

Warbanner's in the second skellie unit

ahh, i see it now.

How about a Corpse Cart?
I really like the style of it, but am a bit bummed that it cannot join a zombie unit (with necromancer riding it).
Is it too vulnerable in a unit which is supposed to get into melee? As far as I see it, it's pretty much save in a unit due to it's unit strength of 3+1.

Thanks for help!

Greets
Schepp himself

I like the corpse cart's playstyle also, i use it in a steriotypical "maniac on alter behind legion of undead." The bound spell is great, adding to the magic supremecy, and countering the usual sluggishness of the VC melee. Both upgrades are extremely useful, and it gives your necro a place to rest where he isnt in immediate frontline danger.

But isn't the corpse cart one tasty target for war machines if it's out alone with a necromancer riding it? In a unit it couldn't be targeted...but doesn't get a watch-out-save.

Greets
Schepp himself

Yes it is, plus what are you going to kill with it in combat..... nothing, and it wont make its points back by summoning extra models, so why take it. I dont mean to seem overly critical but your list could be much better. One thing to consider is playing ghouls instead of skeletons, now i realize that having no armor makes them seem vulnerable but the toughness increase makes them much harder to kill than you would think by almost all rank and file infantry, plus they have 2 poisoned attacks, for the same points cost. Another reason for taking ghouls is if you give one of your vampires the ghoulkin power all of your core units get a free 8" move Also the fell bat unit will most likely not kill anything except war machine crews, so i would only keep it to 3 models and use it for march blocking. Also take a varghulf maybe even 2 they are amazing!!! Your wight king should be a BSB with the drakenhof banner in the grave guard unit. So the grave guard unit has the helm of commandment used on it giving it WS 7, plus the banner of the barrows, with great weapons, allowing them to hit on 2+ agianst almost all enemies with Strength 6 killing blow.

I hope that these tips help.

One thing to consider is playing ghouls instead of skeletons, now i realize that having no armor makes them seem vulnerable but the toughness increase makes them much harder to kill than you would think by almost all rank and file infantry, plus they have 2 poisoned attacks, for the same points cost. Another reason for taking ghouls is if you give one of your vampires the ghoulkin power all of your core units get a free 8" move

Mhhh...sure, I heard that argument before, but I don't feel comfortable with ghouls as the core mainstay in a von-carstein army, you know, themewise.

I would take ghouls if I had a strigoi vampire army, though, because they are nice for the points.

Greets
Schepp himself

The thing with ghouls and ghoulkin is if you're using small units and expecting to raise them like this one does, ghoulkin takes away the time you require to accomplish that.