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This is a rule that i play with but I'd like other peoples views on it

OK basically any model with 2+ armour save costing 40pts or more gets 1+ armour. Rolls of 1 are still a fail, so it is still a 2+ save but (big but) only AP 1 weapons ignore the save ... all armies have AP1 weapons (or rending ... ect.) so you can ignore the armour, also Since these are normally anti Tank weapons you can understand why it rips through them. In CC power weapons still ignore armour saves, since at that range you can pick out weak spot more easily.

Invented this rule for my fiends Terminators aka Tactical Dreadnought (with armour is thick as on the Land-raider as it says in the codex) who were always being destroyed by plasma Weapons. Basically every game the moment they could be shot at they were destroyed ... at least this way they're ether destroyed by massive fire power and fluffing the save or by anti tank units turning their fire power on them.

This is just my feelings about terminators being screwed over by every race have way to many AP 2 weapons, tell me what you think

revised version after comments from H.B.M.C.

1+ armour save can only be beaten by weapons that are ap1 or ap2 that cause instant death. Any shot from weapons AP 5,6,- get a rerolled for the armour save

As long as both players consent to using these rules, then it doesnt seem to unfair. Just don't go expecting to use these in a tournement

Although I agree, if Termies have armour as thick as a LR it seems a bit weak.

Offtopic - What do AP 1 weapons do anyway that AP2 weapons don't do? Sorry for the noob question.

when rolling for pentration glancing hits counted as pentrating hits (this is negated by cover or skimers moving over X"){4th ED} (then a 5+ cover save for cover or skimers moving over X"){5th ED IMHO}

Tri wrote:Invented this rule for my fiends Terminators aka Tactical Dreadnought (with armour is thick as on the Land-raider as it says in the codex) who were always being destroyed by plasma Weapons.

Doesn't solve the problem.

I tried this a while back, and it doesn't make Terminators better. It makes them more immune to Lascannons (something that should be killing them), but no more durable against small arms (which should be bouncing off them more than they do now).

After much trial and error we settled on Terminators that are T4(5) W2 Sv2+/5+(I).

This makes Terminators worth 45 points each, they soak up small-arms, Plasma Guns take twice as many shots to kill them and Lascannons put them to sleep. Solves every problem.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:
After much trial and error we settled on Terminators that are T4(5) W2 Sv2+/5+(I).

.... yes & no. Your right Lascannons should ignore the armour but i don't like the 2 wounds ... biggest problem with 40k is there are only 6 grades of armour and nothing that fits terminators

... slight tweak to my rule that would make it work as you say, is that weapons that would cause instant death(& AP2) would also ignore the save due to there massive fire power ...

... but that still leaves small arms fire .... any shots from AP5 (or worse) weapons get a rerolled armour save

1+ armour save can only be beaten by weapons that are ap1 or ap2 that cause instant death. Any shot from weapons AP 5,6,- get a rerolled for the armour save

... still need work but then that's why i posted

Well there are a couple of ways to deal with this. I think the best would be to just make terminators cheeper. Problem solved. But since everyone wants them to be unkillable, there are a couple of ways to do it without completely breaking them.

My proposal would be to give their armor save a re-roll. It would make them almost completely invincible against small arms fire but still just as vulnerable to plasma, meltas, and las cannons. You know, the stuff that should be killing them. With this I would even go so far as to sugest that they lose their I save (and the reroll should only ever apply to the armor save, never the I save).

I like killing terminators with Scatterlasers. Fun for me, demoralising for them....a slow agonising death. They curse every 1 rolled as if they didnt expect it.

Back in 2nd edition, Terminator armor really seemed to perform "as expected".

But then, those were the dark days of Armor Save Modifiers!

This is an interesting thread, as I was thinking of what GW could do to but the shine back in TDA. Lots of good ideas here, but I think GW might go the "fewer points" route only, sadly.

Then they can start working on something to make Dreadnoughts worth taking too, hopefully.

I like the AP1 idea for termie armour. Does this mean we get three shots on our Starcannons again?

Alpharius wrote:Back in 2nd edition, Terminator armor really seemed to perform "as expected".

Um, yah. If by "as expected" you mean so over the top powerful that no one ever under any cricumstances took a power armor marine unless it was just an excuse to cram in extra heavy weapons to the army (devistator squads)...then yes.

For those of you who were not with us in the old days of 2nd edition, terminators had 3+ saves and rolled them on 2d6 (take the total). There were armor save modifiers for most weapons (-1 for most basic weapons up to -6 for things like melta weapons and las cannons). So at the low end, terminators failed saves to las gun wounds 2.8% of the time and las cannons 72% of the time. So all in all, they were well neigh indestructable.

well my other view was to re-classify Terminator armour as unit of walkers with armour 10 (or 9) all round and with extra armour (ok they can't shoot, the're still coming) but i think that point wise they'd have to at least double. that or make it so any damage roll of 3+ was a destroy ... maybe with a 5+ cover saver for being a small target (compaired to a tank)

(that said they'd still cost more then an ork warbugy thing)

Tri wrote:well my other view was to re-classify Terminator armour as unit of walkers with armour 10 (or 9) all round and with extra armour (ok they can't shoot, the're still coming) but i think that point wise they'd have to at least double. that or make it so any damage roll of 3+ was a destroy ... maybe with a 5+ cover saver for being a small target (compaired to a tank)

(that said they'd still cost more then an ork warbugy thing)

Eeeeeeew. Blaugh. Augh.

Your idea is to make Terminators more expensive, and less effective? AV 10 vehicles don't survive. They just don't.

No, no. HBMC has the right idea - Extra wounds, more toughness. The armour is already as good as it gets.

I'd like for you to tell me what weapon in the Ork or Dark Eldar armory would be able to kill said mini with a 1+ save. Do that and I'll change my vote.

ha no ... points double if you made them a normal vechical then you'd have to double the points as they have 2 weapons systems (well most do PF and SB). Armour 10 vechicals are easy to kill but not as easy as 2+ armour.
and in the 5th ed vechicals in genral are harder to kill ... hell theres no point in taking vibro cannons any more cause they get a -3 modifire for the damge roll

DAMAGE TABLE
D6 Result
1 or less Crew shaken
2 Crew stunned
3 Damaged –
Weapon destroyed
4 Damaged –
Immobilised
5 Destroyed –
Wrecked.
6 or more Destroyed –
Explodes!
Modifiers:
Glancing hit -2
Hit by ‘AP–‘ weapon -1
Hit by ‘AP1’ weapon +1
Target is Open-topped +1

Boss GreenNutz wrote:I'd like for you to tell me what weapon in the Ork or Dark Eldar armory would be able to kill said mini with a 1+ save. Do that and I'll change my vote.

PowerKlaw. Agonizer.

I win.

MinMax wrote:

Boss GreenNutz wrote:I'd like for you to tell me what weapon in the Ork or Dark Eldar armory would be able to kill said mini with a 1+ save. Do that and I'll change my vote.

PowerKlaw. Agonizer.

I win.

They still get their 5+ INV save as the OP didn't say anything about getting rid of it so it still isn't an assured kill.

Phoenix wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Back in 2nd edition, Terminator armor really seemed to perform "as expected".

Um, yah. If by "as expected" you mean so over the top powerful that no one ever under any cricumstances took a power armor marine unless it was just an excuse to cram in extra heavy weapons to the army (devistator squads)...then yes.

For those of you who were not with us in the old days of 2nd edition, terminators had 3+ saves and rolled them on 2d6 (take the total). There were armor save modifiers for most weapons (-1 for most basic weapons up to -6 for things like melta weapons and las cannons). So at the low end, terminators failed saves to las gun wounds 2.8% of the time and las cannons 72% of the time. So all in all, they were well neigh indestructable.

Um, yeah?

That *is* what I meant...

Shouldn't they only rarely fall to small arms and more so to 'big guns'?

Did we just agree?