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I read there are quite a few very good armies out there like "falcons", "mech tau" "big bugs" etc. and am wondering if there is a blueprint for PREVENTION against these armies? I am playing chaos daemons and does not have the interest to make a cheese army to go against those armies. Is the best way to be toe to toe with these armies is just spread out the forces evenly between shooting/hth slow/fast ? I am not going to make armies for huge tournaments (local ones maybe) so I might need not to worry about those armies too much unless people play them all the time..

You should also add horde orks to your list.

The reason why those armies are successful is because they are very hard to beat. Also if you build your army to beat one of them, you will weaken your army against others.

With the addition of horde orks there are very few armies that are at an advantage to beat all the other armies out there (Necrons are one of the few).

What I do is build a good, solid list that has the chance to beat them, and hope that my tactics are enough to get you by what might be a disadvantage on paper.

If you are playing demons, you need some shooting for the Mech armies. That means Soulgrinders, and some Bolts of Change. Everyone else you should be able to beat in assault.

Some armies just have no way to counter other armies (for example Demonhunters against Mech armies). So unless you are going with mostly Tzeentch, you might be at a severe disadvantage against a skimmer army.

Or you can build your army that is strong against everyone except skimmers and hope you do not face one of those armies.

What type of point total are you talking about as most tournies run 1500 plus. If your not going to reach that total its almost not worth having a topic?

Tarval wrote:What type of point total are you talking about as most tournies run 1500 plus. If your not going to reach that total its almost not worth having a topic?

sorry probably 1500-2000 points. What is the problem with skimmers? their invuln. save or their hit and run annoyance?

Skimmers are generally annoying because in 4th, once they move over 6", they can only ever be glanced. Add the many Eldar and to a lesser extent Tau upgrades and they became quite annoying. Also, let us not forget that they can only be hit on a 6 in CC, making it very hard to use grenades to take them down.

In 5th, if the scuttle is true, instead of being immune to penetrating hits, they receive a 5+ cover save when on the move. This makes them easier to kill, but as far as we can tell, they can still only be hit by 6's in CC.

They are fast enough to keep away or out of LOS of many weapons and usually carry either mean ol troops or mean ol firepower.

Like blackmoor said, if you want a successful "all-comers" army that is strong vs the typical cheese lists, then it's best to make an as balanced force as possible while min-maxing what you can. For example, my marine army has 4 tactical squads in drop pods, each with melta guns/flamers/plasma guns. My dreads have auto cannons and heavy flamers, and my terminators are both able to shoot at infantry, heavy armor, or mechanised units. Each squad is made as versatile as possible, and use your tactics/wit to overcome the other army.

Any one of the Tier 1 army builds is beatable (we're really talking V4 here, as nobody has enough experience to talk V5 yet). The thing that makes them such a pain is that there are very few armies that can reliably take on them all.

By Tier 1 lists, I'm talking about the lists that show up often in the top tables on the national tournament circuit, at events like the GTs, Games Days Tourneys, and AdeptiCon. In the last year, you saw an awful lot of Godzilla Nids, Tri-falcon Eldar, and footslogger Orks (only speaking of AdeptiCon here, as the new codex wasn't released until after the 2007 GT circuit was complete). All three are really, really, strong lists...but the problem is that what works against one isn't going to work against the others.

Against Godzilla nids, you want as much AP2 weaponry as you can squeeze into your lists...or you want a very particular Daemonhunter build. Against Tri-Falcon Eldar, your best bet is large numbers of mid-strength shooting weapons. And against the orks...well, you need to kill at least 100 models throughout the course of the game.

All of those tend to be mutually contradictory. So a few other builds tended to appear fairly regularly as counters. As Blackmoor said, much more balanced, generally slightly weaker, but far more tactically flexible.

With the Inclusion of Horde Orks, the game has turned more towards a rock-paper-scissors approach towards armylists.

The Ork codex has done something REALLY special (just to reiterate what blackmoor and others have said).

I felt pretty much before that one could build a list to take on every power list out there effectively, but Ork (horde) armies didnt simply raise the bar, they started up a whole new catagory. A horde army that shoots you off the table is a very scary prospect indeed, and if you want to 'handle' it, you might not be so good against something like big bugs or eldar.

I sometimes feel that if you want to handle every army in 40k from a point of strength, now, the only way to go IS horde Orks. The army is just that good.

Personally, and these are my thoughts when considering what army I'm going to build, so many may or may not agree. I think there is going to be a definate shift in the really effective armies out there, definatly AWAY from space marines. Due to 5th edition changes and the Ork codex (which I feel is the strongest one out right now), hordes are back in a big way, and not just due to Orks being so common now. If you want to survive a strong shooting phase with wide open feilds of fire (true LOS) you need numbers if you dont have armour 14 transports or falcons. This all depends on how you play of course but for now I'm placing my marines all on the "for fun" shelf while making sure my "eldar horde" gets painted and I'm considering a new (and large) guard army, what with the codex coming out and all.

In answer to the OP. A nice balance with one really good trick might serve you the best with the Daemon Codex. That book hasnt the ability to stomp all comers like a hard Ork list can, but anyone can be good with any list, all it takes is smart buys, smart tactics, and plenty of practice.

....and dont worry about winning, JJ just wants you to "have fun".

Centurian99 wrote:Any one of the Tier 1 army builds is beatable (we're really talking V4 here, as nobody has enough experience to talk V5 yet). The thing that makes them such a pain is that there are very few armies that can reliably take on them all.

By Tier 1 lists, I'm talking about the lists that show up often in the top tables on the national tournament circuit, at events like the GTs, Games Days Tourneys, and AdeptiCon. In the last year, you saw an awful lot of Godzilla Nids, Tri-falcon Eldar, and footslogger Orks (only speaking of AdeptiCon here, as the new codex wasn't released until after the 2007 GT circuit was complete). All three are really, really, strong lists...but the problem is that what works against one isn't going to work against the others.

Against Godzilla nids, you want as much AP2 weaponry as you can squeeze into your lists...or you want a very particular Daemonhunter build. Against Tri-Falcon Eldar, your best bet is large numbers of mid-strength shooting weapons. And against the orks...well, you need to kill at least 100 models throughout the course of the game.

All of those tend to be mutually contradictory. So a few other builds tended to appear fairly regularly as counters. As Blackmoor said, much more balanced, generally slightly weaker, but far more tactically flexible.

I totally aggree, I wish I was this eloquent.

thehod wrote:With the Inclusion of Horde Orks, the game has turned more towards a rock-paper-scissors approach towards armylists.

It wasn't before?

Deadshane1 wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:Any one of the Tier 1 army builds is beatable (we're really talking V4 here, as nobody has enough experience to talk V5 yet). The thing that makes them such a pain is that there are very few armies that can reliably take on them all.

By Tier 1 lists, I'm talking about the lists that show up often in the top tables on the national tournament circuit, at events like the GTs, Games Days Tourneys, and AdeptiCon. In the last year, you saw an awful lot of Godzilla Nids, Tri-falcon Eldar, and footslogger Orks (only speaking of AdeptiCon here, as the new codex wasn't released until after the 2007 GT circuit was complete). All three are really, really, strong lists...but the problem is that what works against one isn't going to work against the others.

Against Godzilla nids, you want as much AP2 weaponry as you can squeeze into your lists...or you want a very particular Daemonhunter build. Against Tri-Falcon Eldar, your best bet is large numbers of mid-strength shooting weapons. And against the orks...well, you need to kill at least 100 models throughout the course of the game.

All of those tend to be mutually contradictory. So a few other builds tended to appear fairly regularly as counters. As Blackmoor said, much more balanced, generally slightly weaker, but far more tactically flexible.

I totally aggree, I wish I was this eloquent.

Thanks. Just start talking about BFG...then I get to watch you wow the crowd.

Centurian99 wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:Any one of the Tier 1 army builds is beatable (we're really talking V4 here, as nobody has enough experience to talk V5 yet). The thing that makes them such a pain is that there are very few armies that can reliably take on them all.

By Tier 1 lists, I'm talking about the lists that show up often in the top tables on the national tournament circuit, at events like the GTs, Games Days Tourneys, and AdeptiCon. In the last year, you saw an awful lot of Godzilla Nids, Tri-falcon Eldar, and footslogger Orks (only speaking of AdeptiCon here, as the new codex wasn't released until after the 2007 GT circuit was complete). All three are really, really, strong lists...but the problem is that what works against one isn't going to work against the others.

Against Godzilla nids, you want as much AP2 weaponry as you can squeeze into your lists...or you want a very particular Daemonhunter build. Against Tri-Falcon Eldar, your best bet is large numbers of mid-strength shooting weapons. And against the orks...well, you need to kill at least 100 models throughout the course of the game.

All of those tend to be mutually contradictory. So a few other builds tended to appear fairly regularly as counters. As Blackmoor said, much more balanced, generally slightly weaker, but far more tactically flexible.

I totally aggree, I wish I was this eloquent.

Thanks. Just start talking about BFG...then I get to watch you wow the crowd.

gOFIK Be ROXXORZ!

If you want to win, bring big guns and roll well!

Let the Cheering for my greatness commence!