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So I have been making a Farsight army of many many suits, and very few fire warriors, for the last year - where can any list like this go in 5th ed?? How is Tau going to work with the troops only requirement for objective grabbing, especially if you aren't using kroot?
For 1850 the classic Farsight 8 suit council fits in with 48 firewarriors, 2 devilfishes, 100 point commander and 2 DR-4s[or TL fusion-4s]. But could this really contend at 1850?
What do other Tau players feel about the scoring changes? Most people already rely on the two mechanized fire warrior squads - does EVERY　Tau army now face the same fate?

ibushi

To be honest i think tau are in for a world of hurt this edition. The troops only scoring isn't amazingly bad, you can still contest with other units so you can deny the enemy claiming them whilst claiming a couple if you're lucky. Kroot get a bit better i guess, i think you'll need at least three squads in 1500pts, mainly down to run.

The biggest change i see that will screw tau over the most is the outflanking rules. That will hurt so much! Generally in 4th ed you can micromanage where the enemy is going and blast them, now if someone has flanking units like ravenwing, kommandoes, chosen etc, you have to stay at least 12" from the side edges which sucks hard. With this sort of ability (ok not everyone has it but i'd expect in a 6 game tourny to face at least two games with this threat), you can't really go static, as you need to react quickly and stay mobile, plus run makes going static a bit of a bad idea against combat armies, plus you can't skimmer wall as well with getting hit on the rear armour and penned in combat (i think anyway).

I don't think Farsight and his buddies will be that badly off, the LoS issue with suits now is finding good places to hide them properly, never really an issue with farsight and his millions of shield drones. Counter attack when they get charged makes them miles better, farsight should always swing in combat and all those S5 attacks....yay!

I think the way to go is to batter the enemy as much as you can, reduce their scoring potential and make sure your troops claim your own objectives securely and contest the enemies. At least you won't give up that many kill points with so many points in one unit

Re: Dealing with outflanking- perhaps better than staying 12" from the board edge is staying 6" away and buying a rearguard unit. With no consolidate into combat, your speedbump unit can make you much more secure (especially against fast flankers). And they can add their fire forwards once the enemy gets closer to you lines, too. Should they not be employed against enemy reserves, they can Run forwards towards (nearby) objectives after you're fairly sure no more reserves are coming in.

A unit of firewarriors in the rear sans upgrades seems like a good idea in 5th.

Yeah the problem is if the outflanking squad double charges you or there are more than one. But hey,it depends on how popular they really are. I certainly agree with you and will be taking a "speedbump"unit, backed up by some hot fiery pulse rifle action.

Savnock wrote:Re: Dealing with outflanking- perhaps better than staying 12" from the board edge is staying 6" away and buying a rearguard unit. With no consolidate into combat, your speedbump unit can make you much more secure (especially against fast flankers). And they can add their fire forwards once the enemy gets closer to you lines, too. Should they not be employed against enemy reserves, they can Run forwards towards (nearby) objectives after you're fairly sure no more reserves are coming in.

A unit of firewarriors in the rear sans upgrades seems like a good idea in 5th.

A very good point. I played in a team tournament where one of the teams had space wolves with the scouts that enter via your deployment edge. The first game against them, the scouts did a lot of damage to my team's line. In the second game against them, I was much better prepared. I took my 2 guardian squads (20 guardians total) and spread them out at the full 2" coherency all across my back board edge (touching the board edge). This ment that the only places the wolf scouts could come onto the board were the very corners of my deployment zone and the only thing over there for them to mess with would be the one guardian squad. So that game, the scouts did nothing useful. Using a bare bones fire warrior unit or two for a similar purpose would work just as well. Perhaps even better since its likely something will end up in their 30" kill zone sooner or later.

I already do the same thing phoenix mentioned when necessary with one or two kroot units against snikrot or the wolf scouts, if necessary. Farsight will have to do it with fire warriors or drones.

The fact that farsight gets bonding for free will be nice since supposedly troops count as contesting objectives even below half so long as they aren't falling back. 6 squads of 8 FW with shas'ui and markerlight wouldn't be bad, and 5th edition seems to make markerlights that much more appealing (due to the plethora of cover saves).

Tau will be fine you just have to play them differently than 4th. I am currently working on a build for 5th edition. It looks like nothing I have seen posted before.

I could see pulse carbines being more useful, as well as marker drones with sniper squads. Rail rifles are not that bad against transports. Stealth suits are a nice choice too with infiltrate and fusion blasters. I don't think tau are in nearly as bad of shape as some would say. With a much greater push for troops fire warriors are not too bad in greater numbers, even in assault.

Fish of Fury will actually get even more lethal with stealth suits following behind them. Image 3 fish loaded with 12 fire warriors each with 2 squads of 6 stealth suits
Thats less than 1000pts for a nice hunter carde.

Rail rifles are not that bad against transports.

Wrong. They are terrible. What's that, you spent 80 points on on a Sniper Drone team? Great, that's as good as a single assault cannon! Only without rending. And TH. And with one less shot.

Sniper teams are fine, but halfway-efficient anti-vehicle--any kind of vehicle--they are not.

With a much greater push for troops fire warriors are not too bad in greater numbers, even in assault.

You're fething with me. Please, tell me what makes FWs any better in assault than they are in 4th.

Fish of Fury will actually get even more lethal with stealth suits following behind them.

More lethal? How so?

I appreciate the feedback apostolos, but like T-C points out, I don't fully understand the differences between that hunter cadre in 4th vs. 5th. Obviously stealth teams can flank now, but with 6 suits making 2 fusion guns, its not a particularly points efficient mode of tank killing, only jumping isolated squads of troops.

But its true that for needing increased quantities of troops in 5th fire warriors and kroot are certainly not the worst. But how FWs are good in combat is also slightly beyond me. I think they are widely considered the worst squad in combat next to grots. lol

Let me explain a few things you guys do have some strong arguments against me from rereading what I wrote. First yes rail rifles are not the best gun tau has against transports I but they are useful for more than just one roll. They won't be scoring anyway in 5th so that is a plus for them. I must admit I do have a soft spot for the drone models.

On to firewarriors, well my point was that they are probably the worst pound for pound in close combat than any other unit, but the thing is when there is 40-50 of them castled together what ever does make it to combat will still have a time against such numbers. Some armies can most units across the table quickly, these armies wont care about the numbers because the can match them.

As far as the "more lethal" FoF I was referring to how the stealth suits can in 5th tag along behind for more S5 fire power. Yes it is at the expense of the precious elite slot but this in my opinion makes tau's hunter cadre more of a threat because the HQ's and elites jumping behind the fish are out of LOS to the enemy.

First yes rail rifles are not the best gun tau has against transports I but they are useful for more than just one roll.

"Can scratch them" and "good against them" are different things. Yes, rail rifles could conceivably pop a transport in a tight spot, but when planning your list and tactics, you should assume that they'll be shooting at other things. Using them against vehicles is an act of desperation.

On to firewarriors, well my point was that they are probably the worst pound for pound in close combat than any other unit, but the thing is when there is 40-50 of them castled together what ever does make it to combat will still have a time against such numbers.

Sorry, I have to call BS on this. What really happens is that the enemy ties up multiple squads of FWs in one go, preventing them from firing and slowly (or not so slowly, depending) killing them over a few turns. Your idea is a pipe dream. Try it and see.

As far as the "more lethal" FoF I was referring to how the stealth suits can in 5th tag along behind for more S5 fire power. Yes it is at the expense of the precious elite slot but this in my opinion makes tau's hunter cadre more of a threat because the HQ's and elites jumping behind the fish are out of LOS to the enemy.

This is nothing but a small consolation for losing effective terrain-based JSJ.

Also, with Tau having to take more FWs, Stealth Suits themselves will become less valuable, since all they provide is more S5.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:
Sorry, I have to call BS on this. What really happens is that the enemy ties up multiple squads of FWs in one go, preventing them from firing and slowly (or not so slowly, depending) killing them over a few turns. Your idea is a pipe dream. Try it and see.

I have a few times and it did work, yes I did lose a lot of fire warriors but they did do a lot of shooting before they were tied in assault which helped.

As far as the "more lethal" FoF I was referring to how the stealth suits can in 5th tag along behind for more S5 fire power. Yes it is at the expense of the precious elite slot but this in my opinion makes tau's hunter cadre more of a threat because the HQ's and elites jumping behind the fish are out of LOS to the enemy.

This is nothing but a small consolation for losing effective terrain-based JSJ.

Also, with Tau having to take more FWs, Stealth Suits themselves will become less valuable, since all they provide is more S5.

Apostolos:

I have a few times and it did work, yes I did lose a lot of fire warriors but they did do a lot of shooting before they were tied in assault which helped.

I am not saying anything about the effectiveness of FWs themselves, just your idea that somehow having a lot of them is going to make them "not too bad. . . even in assault."

Also, how does your claim that "they did do a lot of shooting before they were tied in assault" have anything to do with your other claim, that "when there is 40-50 of them castled together what ever does make it to combat will still have a time against such numbers?" There's no connection.

Well the fact that sometimes, not always but sometimes you can move the "terrain" (fish) for JSJ is very helpful in my opinion. I say sometime because the fish do get shot down.

I'm not saying it doesn't work. I'm saying it isn't an improvement over 4th.

Well I think that the rules will support the fluff of a hunter carde better in 5th because the fish provide the screen to whatever flavor of suits.

Well I disagree with you on one point, TC. Sniper rifles do RIGHT now kill transports fairly well, but only if you are facing a totally mech army.

Better to have those drones that give 9 BS3 S6 shots and can target 3 separate transport units (and give a markerlight hit to for seekers) than a 3rd unit of broadsides.

The potential of stopping 3 transports cannot be denied. My Tau cannot fight in CC, even with 40 kroot running around. So I must literally stop EVERY transport from getting across midfield.

That's part of why I have 10 crisis suits, 2 hammerheads (with lock and multimissiles of doom), 5 piranhas, 9 sniper drones, and very few (6!) fire warriors.

No one is allowed on my side of the board. lol and while 3 broadsides are 'better' against transports they suck in general (lascannons ahoy!) and cannot punk marines like sniper rifles can.

It's all about 'what does this unit offer in relation to my entire army', not 'this unit has 3 pathetic shots'. 9 pathetic shots will often immobilize transports in large numbers, just as crisis suits do. Volume not weight of fire is key here.

Hey I heard that the rapid fire weapon rules changed and that pulse rifles can now shoot twice up to 30"s. If thats true you may be able to run the static troop tau and mobile support list.

Thats 16 dead marines a turn or 24 orcs with a 72 man fire warrior contingent. Though you will probably only get two to three rounds of shooting before impact. It might work with sniper drones and a couple of broadsides. The broads knock the vehicle, the drones nail the tougher inf, and the warriors mop up. hooray for old fashioned gunline!

Uhhh don't think so. *checks book* Which page is this on?? lol

Stelek, just considered as a squad, a Sniper Drone team is decent light AT. My point is that it is inefficient, not ineffective, so one should really not be planning to shoot at transports when one is constructing a list. It's something you do when you have.

Ratbarf is confusing the bit about casualties coming from anywhere within the weapon's range with what distance you can double-tap at. You can double-tap at someone from 12" away and the models which are 12"-30" away can still become casualties, but there still needs to be at least on model within 12".

Ratbarf wrote:Hey I heard that the rapid fire weapon rules changed and that pulse rifles can now shoot twice up to 30"s. If thats true you may be able to run the static troop tau and mobile support list.

It's not that they can rapid fire that far, it's that even though the range of rapid fire is 12", as long as at least one member of the enemy squad is within 12", the casualties from shooting can be taken from anywhere in the squad, even those that are more than 12" away. This greatly increases the range of rapid fire for all armies, not just tau.

Tau looks pretty solid and maybe the best boost for them is the "no consolidation" rule, wich will leave anyone assulting them standing round in the open if they kill the first squad. Makes me belive that FW are better now then they were before.

Also, AP1 is so much more worth now that the anti-tank from railguns is the shizzle.

Crysis are suffering a little bit but if you can position them good they will still be able to JSJ without to much hurt comming their way.

That's why large groups of FW are a thing of the past. Small 6 man squads are the way to go so when they are wiped in combat the victors are left standing in the open.

"Ratbarf is confusing the bit about casualties coming from anywhere within the weapon's range with what distance you can double-tap at. You can double-tap at someone from 12" away and the models which are 12"-30" away can still become casualties, but there still needs to be at least on model within 12"."

Oh really? That sucks... 30" 2 str 5 shots would have kicked total ass... It would have been like having a bunch of mini heavy bolters running around...