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So this is the army I think I'll actually create for VC.

It's not overpowering in magic, it's got decent dispel...but the way I figure it:

6 dispel dice should slow most armies down (1 goes to the periapt) but if needed I can drop to 9 power dice and go with 8 dispel dice.

All of the skeleton warrior units will sit back and relax, while the vampires boost them up.

I think having the spells work like this will be best:

3 army pool, 1 each to the non-General vampires.

Just roll all 3 dice for a big invocation of nehek. With the +1 to cast it, I should net 10+ on average and either pull dispel scrolls or require 3-4 dice to try and stop my spells.

Then use the generals 2 dice to get off one raise dead.

If I get it off, yippy skippy. If I don't, I'll just try again next turn.

The raise dead will at least be useful given he has the sceptre.

When I really need it, I'll pop the power stone...either for a skelly raise or a big spell.

If I can get a zombie unit up, I can move them as needed with the Book.

So all that, and that's really just the bones of the army.

The meat are the 20 cairn wraiths. Man, they're just solid. Terror? Skirmishers? Undead? Ethereal? Great Weapons?

Toss in Book and (hopefully, with 4 wizards with 2 rolls on the table each...) a vanhels from a vampire or two on the next turn (if there is one)...Always Strike First AND re-roll misses?

YES PLEASE!

I don't think people have really REALLY read what the new VC 'ethereal' rule allows.

Always charge 12". Always. No really, ALWAYS. Spell, item, ability...meaningless.

Did I mention they are on small bases? Did I mention skirmishers?

Did I mention great weapons?

Did I mention 3A base?

So against units ranked 5...that's 7 wraiths.

Gee, really? 21 WS3 attacks @ S5? Magical? Really? Really?

That I can heal with the 4 vampires in the back, and give ASF and re-rolls to? REALLY?

So on any given turn, if you don't stop my spells...I can probably charge a skirmishing unit of invulnerable bullsh*t 20" in any direction??

YES PLEASE!

Oh and 2W each. Yeah, it's lame.

Can't wait.

2000 Pts - Vampire Counts Roster - The Cairn!

1 Vampire @ 190 Pts
General; Hand Weapon; Undead
1 Power Stone @ [20] Pts
1 Sceptre de Noirot @ [25] Pts
1 Dark Acolyte @ [30] Pts
1 Lord of the Dead @ [15] Pts

1 Vampire @ 180 Pts
Hand Weapon; Undead
1 Book of Arkhan @ [35] Pts
1 Dark Acolyte @ [30] Pts
1 Lord of the Dead @ [15] Pts

1 Vampire @ 160 Pts
Hand Weapon; Undead
1 Black Periapt @ [15] Pts
1 Dark Acolyte @ [30] Pts
1 Lord of the Dead @ [15] Pts

1 Vampire @ 145 Pts
Hand Weapon; Undead
1 Dark Acolyte @ [30] Pts
1 Lord of the Dead @ [15] Pts

9 Skeleton Warriors @ 106 Pts
Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield; Undead
1 Banner of Hellfire @ [10] Pts
1 Skeleton Champion @ [16] Pts
Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield

9 Skeleton Warriors @ 121 Pts
Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield; Undead
1 Banner of the Dead Legion @ [25] Pts
1 Skeleton Champion @ [16] Pts
Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield

9 Skeleton Warriors @ 96 Pts
Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield; Undead
1 Skeleton Champion @ [16] Pts
Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield

10 Cairn Wraiths @ 500 Pts
Great Weapon; Causes Terror; Ethereal; Skirmishers; Undead

10 Cairn Wraiths @ 500 Pts
Great Weapon; Causes Terror; Ethereal; Skirmishers; Undead

Total Roster Cost: 1998

If someone's reading this, they probably know what a cairn wraith is. You don't need to spell it out in short doublespaced paragraphs, it's a waste of our time.

In any case, nice as wraiths are they're the only thing in this list that will do much. Without ranks and standards they're very vulnerable to crumble from a good combat character or two. I would include a banshee in each squad to help combat that.

I think you need to read up on the vampire lore, or at least rethink how to cast spells. Vampires shouldn't ever use more than a single die for raise dead of IoN.

I actually thought his description was quite thrilling. It is a new book, after all. There are any number of 40k only players around here. Doubly so the number to jump in on Stelek when they get a chance .

Cairn Wraiths are nice, but I don't know if those three small blocks of skeletons will prove enough to properly support them. 21 attacks equals 10.5 hits which equals 8.75 wounds against Toughness 3. Assuming a standard Empire line block of 25 soldiers with no detachments, we'll round up and assume 9 kills. That gives you a combat res of 9 and your opponent will normally have at least a 5 still (3 ranks + standard + outnumbers). Testing on a -4 LD is not pretty, but you don't have the unit strength to autobreak and with a general and BSB, the line block has a decent chance of holding and keeping you in place for a counter assault with something nasty. If it does have a detachment, the Empire player tacks another +1 to his automatic combat res, but this could be wiped out because another wraith should get the opportunity to strike then.

Unfortunately, that is the average result against the weakest core troops in the game. Any kind of unit with a base armor save of 4+ or better will quickly eat into the combat resolution gained by the wraiths---especially since higher AV units in fantasy generally come with a higher toughness as well. Since this list has no speed threat or a slower moving second wave to threaten me, I can concentrate all my magic on decimating one unit and then using a hammer unit to beat the other wraith unit into submission through sheer force of combat res.

Your other list scares me much more.

Take care,
Mike K.

PanzerLeader wrote:Cairn Wraiths are nice, but I don't know if those three small blocks of skeletons will prove enough to properly support them. 21 attacks equals 10.5 hits which equals 8.75 wounds against Toughness 3. Assuming a standard Empire line block of 25 soldiers with no detachments, we'll round up and assume 9 kills. That gives you a combat res of 9 and your opponent will normally have at least a 5 still (3 ranks + standard + outnumbers). Testing on a -4 LD is not pretty, but you don't have the unit strength to autobreak and with a general and BSB, the line block has a decent chance of holding and keeping you in place for a counter assault with something nasty. If it does have a detachment, the Empire player tacks another +1 to his automatic combat res, but this could be wiped out because another wraith should get the opportunity to strike then.

Unfortunately, that is the average result against the weakest core troops in the game. Any kind of unit with a base armor save of 4+ or better will quickly eat into the combat resolution gained by the wraiths---especially since higher AV units in fantasy generally come with a higher toughness as well. Since this list has no speed threat or a slower moving second wave to threaten me, I can concentrate all my magic on decimating one unit and then using a hammer unit to beat the other wraith unit into submission through sheer force of combat res.

Your other list scares me much more.

Take care,
Mike K.

This is a list I can enjoy. My local game shop HATES my usual armies, because they are all built not to use the normal fantasy rules.

At some point I might do both, but this one is easy to put together.

The other is designed for the all cav all air all the time asshats.

Anyway I'm not quite sure how I follow--maybe not explaining how the list would work properly. My apologies.

I'd hide. I'd cast my skeleton buffing spells until I had something of the blocks in said army.

That's why I'd be casting with lots of dice instead of just 1. When you run this army you NEED those spells to go off.

Once I had been casting for a couple turns, I'd have more of an army and I'd move out.

Those cairn wraiths can take SOME armies but against others they are support.

I hope you see now how I have a slow moving second rank. It just takes a while to get going.

By the way if vanhels goes off, it's more like 13-16 hits. Against most blocks of T3, that's a double 1 to stay--and if I have skeletons in there, it's a autorun.

Against tougher higher armor units everyone has problems. Remember that bit about having issues at the FLGS, where people don't want to play my fantasy armies?

Well, there's a reason I'd rather play this army than the other--people won't just go 'oh it's another anti-fantasy army' and not play.

This army has definite weaknesses. All armies do, this ones is easier to spot than others.

"Hey I just spent 1000 points on 20 guys!" Weakness. lol

Mnemoch wrote:If someone's reading this, they probably know what a cairn wraith is. You don't need to spell it out in short doublespaced paragraphs, it's a waste of our time.

In any case, nice as wraiths are they're the only thing in this list that will do much. Without ranks and standards they're very vulnerable to crumble from a good combat character or two. I would include a banshee in each squad to help combat that.

I think you need to read up on the vampire lore, or at least rethink how to cast spells. Vampires shouldn't ever use more than a single die for raise dead of IoN.

Banshee? The one that gets challenged and can't hide, and can't kill anything in close combat? And cannot kill characters with her wail, so....maybe you should read up?

If I wanted a zombie army, I'd run one. I don't want a zombie army. I want a skeleton army. I want each vampire to raise large numbers of skeletons as quickly as possible.

Rolling single dice encourages people to roll single dice to stop you.

Most standard armies have 6 dispel dice (or more).

So if I roll 1 dice 3 times trying to raise skeletons, do I ever raise skeletons?

1 dice +1 versus 2 dice = no.

I know what you're saying about spells, but that's the way it goes for other VC armies. Not mine.

As far as how I post, sorry I want it to be a narrative not a story. When I want it to be a story, it's a story.

Your vampires are very squishy, I'd expect them to be dead by turn 3.

Tacobake wrote:I actually thought his description was quite thrilling. It is a new book, after all. There are any number of 40k only players around here. Doubly so the number to jump in on Stelek when they get a chance .

Look around and see how often I do that. In any case, an entire page of 3 word paragraphs is annoying to have to scroll past. I stand by my comment.

Stelek wrote:Banshee? The one that gets challenged and can't hide, and can't kill anything in close combat? And cannot kill characters with her wail, so....maybe you should read up?

If I wanted a zombie army, I'd run one. I don't want a zombie army. I want a skeleton army. I want each vampire to raise large numbers of skeletons as quickly as possible.

Rolling single dice encourages people to roll single dice to stop you.

Most standard armies have 6 dispel dice (or more).

So if I roll 1 dice 3 times trying to raise skeletons, do I ever raise skeletons?

1 dice +1 versus 2 dice = no.

I know what you're saying about spells, but that's the way it goes for other VC armies. Not mine.

As far as how I post, sorry I want it to be a narrative not a story. When I want it to be a story, it's a story.

Maybe I do need to read up, but where does it say that banshees can't kill characters? Or that she can't hide from a challenge?

I never said you should switch to zombies, skellies are fine. I said that when they're the ONLY thing you've got besides banshees, if you run out of banshees then you're not going to be doing much afterward. And if you actually want to raise large numbers of skeletons then you'd be rolling on a single die. In any case, your math is deficient. 3 dice with a +1 is easier to beat than 3 single dice each with a +1. When the lowest number your opponent has to beat is a 4, you want him to try a single die. He's only got a 50% chance to beat you. That's better than rolling 3 dice and having him use 4, as then he'll be useing fewer dice per successful dispel on average.

Lord with forbidden lore would get you a surefire Vanhel's to whom you can feed all of your pool dice. I see swapping 2 heroes for a lord level vamp easily. Also, where's the helm of commandment? It's pretty darn tasty with the wraiths.

Ok here's the math you seem unwilling to run.

I have 4 wizards.

I can only cast skeleton raising 4 times in total.

I WANT to create a new zombie unit every turn if possible, with the 4th wizard. New zombie units are not serious threats in this edition of VC, so stopping them isn't necessary.

So that leaves me with casting 3 dice, which work on a 3+ (you obviously don't seem to know the rules but to raise skeletons with the vampires I've chosen it works on a 3+ since I have +1 to raise skellies AND I clearly said I intended to do so...but thanks).

At any rate, 1 of my spells fails on average YOUR way.
This leaves 6 dispel dice versus my 2 spells whose maximum casting cost is 7.

Can you figure the math now, doing it YOUR way?

Doing it MY way, I risk miscasts but my spells will ALWAYS go off.

With average dice rolls, I force those 6 dispel dice to try and beat my 11-13 average dice roll. The odds are in my favor on every cast, and without scrolls or more dispel dice you can't really stop all of my spells.

Don't forget the magic items that are also bound spells in the list sucking out more dice.

Lastly, the banshee has ONE CC attack and her magic attack is "distributed like shooting". That means characters are immune to it. In a unit of skirmishers if I've lost 3 (as I expect to) then refusing a challenge costs me 1 attack, plus the 2 I lost for downgrading to the banshee in the first place. Not a good idea IMO. Why do you think it's a good idea?

Chaoslord: Yes I would like a lord but I can't afford it. Being reduced to 3 casts of invocation does not help my build--does it? Yes the helm helps but I want this to be more friendly/gimmicky than 'hard'. Pissing people off with WS6 banshees with re-rolls and ASF? In a tourney yes, at my FLGS no.

Ether: My vampires are indeed squishy. They're also hiding, so...since it's difficult to charge me by turn 3 without cav or aircav, and I'm not planning on getting into assaults early...I think they'll last longer.

All vampires are squishy now, btw. Even tooled up, they're squishy. lol

First off, read the second paragraph of page 38 of the VC book. There are 3 necromancy spells, and each can be cast more than once.

Secondly, I'm quite aware of how Lord of the Dead works. It doesn't lower the casting number of IoN, it gives a +1 to the die roll. That means that while you only need to ROLL a 3+, the effective number your opponent needs to be able to dispel it is a 4+

Thirdly, when you've got a nasty character on a dragon or carnosaur or something and your banshee scream is distributed like shooting (and stand and shoot) you'll be happy you've got it. Losing three wraiths before combat and not having a chance to heal them in the magic phase is unlikely, given that magic CC attacks are far more common than shooting attacks outside of a dwarf artillery list.

@ Stelek: Intersting concept. But I still don't think this list is balanced enough to be successful. I get the "anti-fantasy army" concept and it looks like it would be kinda fun to play. But if you dropped the wraiths from 10 to 8 each, you could afford one or two small units of bats to go hunt lone casters and war machines with. Right now, enemy wizards can hop outside of blocks to max their LOS and range without much to worry about.

I also ignored magic in my calculations because then it starts to get out of control on what spells you can and cannot consider. My planned DE normally have 10 power dice and 2-3 bound items at 2000 points. Lets presume I get one of my lower sorceress's to cast Word of Pain on your unit of wraiths. 8+ to cast, remains in play, and your wraiths WS is reduced to 1. That would significantly alter the math involved, especially since DE units are a base WS of 4 or higher. Now we go from hitting on 4+ to hitting on a 5+.

While it might be an anti-fantasy list, your list is terribly unbalanced and has much bigger weaknesses than just spending 1000 points on 20 models.

Take care,
Mike

(Edit for spelling)

Mnemoch wrote:First off, read the second paragraph of page 38 of the VC book. There are 3 necromancy spells, and each can be cast more than once.

Secondly, I'm quite aware of how Lord of the Dead works. It doesn't lower the casting number of IoN, it gives a +1 to the die roll. That means that while you only need to ROLL a 3+, the effective number your opponent needs to be able to dispel it is a 4+

Thirdly, when you've got a nasty character on a dragon or carnosaur or something and your banshee scream is distributed like shooting (and stand and shoot) you'll be happy you've got it. Losing three wraiths before combat and not having a chance to heal them in the magic phase is unlikely, given that magic CC attacks are far more common than shooting attacks outside of a dwarf artillery list.

I stand corrected. May I beg your pardon now? I did just get to the book today.

I did understand it was a 50/50 shot to dispel if I rolled a 3. Not sure we're arguing different things or not.

You really think the banshee wail is worth taking in a friendly game?

I *want* to lose some games. lol

PanzerLeader wrote:@ Stelek: Intersting concept. But I still don't think this list is balanced enough to be successful. I get the "anti-fantasy army" concept and it looks like it would be kinda fun to play. But if you dropped the wraiths from 10 to 8 each, you could afford one or two small units of bats to go hunt lone casters and war machines with. Right now, enemy wizards can hop outside of blocks to max their LOS and range without much to worry about.

I also ignored magic in my calculations because then it starts to get out of control on what spells you can and cannot consider. My planned DE normally have 10 power dice and 2-3 bound items at 2000 points. Lets presume I get one of my lower sorceress's to cast Word of Pain on your unit of wraiths. 8+ to cast, remains in play, and your wraiths WS is reduced to 1. That would significantly alter the math involved, especially since DE units are a base WS of 4 or higher. Now we go from hitting on 4+ to hitting on a 5+.

While it might be an anti-fantasy list, your list is terribly unbalanced and has much bigger weaknesses than just spending 1000 points on 20 models.

Take care,
Mike

(Edit for spelling)

Right on most points--the two most important are:

It will be fun.

It will lose games.

See, I'm having trouble getting games--not because I'm an ass but because my lists are so over the top people can't beat them, my luck, and/or my generalship.

I'd rather the people I know (and not just my friends outside of the FLGS) be more willing to play me.

After all, until this year (ok not exactly but mostly true) it was just me going to tournaments and being a 'killer'.

I've got to be able to have a 'friendly' army and a 'tournament' army, so I can play some fun games.

Not fun for the other guy = big guilt trip for me.

K?

I know I can make the vamps ethereal and/or fly and bang bang bang. Only problem is, who will play it more than once?

If people don't seem to like playing you because you don't bring balanced lists, I'm not sure that bringing a less effective one trick pony is any improvement. According to you earlier in this thread your lists are designed to avoid the core rules as much as possible, but a lot of people who play this game like those standard mechanics. Thus, the hate towards the all-skirmishing woodies, ASF high elves, or ITP undead/daemons.

As for the list, now that you have the book you can go through and fix your characters. A single caster lord can summon as many skeletons as all of those vamps above for far less points, and you don't have to pay for lord of the dead multiple times.

True but isn't generating 3 blocks of big troops for people to play with good enough? The cairn wraiths are there so I want to play the army, not bypass the rules...this isn't a anti-fantasy list. lol I dig having many cloned copies of "death" running around.

Yea well atleast you now this Army will lose

have fun

Understandably you are trying to build a fair list. But the problem here is that you will either win big against armies which can't deal with the Wraiths or lose big against those that can.

A solid demon army would mop the floor with you as your only effective troops would be vulnerable to their naturally magical attacks. And lord help your vampires if there's a a flying GD involved.

A gimmicky loser isn't any better than a gimmicky winner.

Well...I figure if I can get some games in before I get called 'cheese' I'll be plenty happy.

Thankfully no flying GD have shown up yet.