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I have a question that i am sure will be answered with, "god dammit, noob, read ure rulebook it is obviously stated on page XX", but i swear i cant find it...

my question is about blast weapons, im not clear exactly how the shooting works. this is the way it think it works, but nothing is explicit in the rule book, so let me know...

assuming ive successfully hit a unit with my blast weapon and ive determined all affected models (fully covered and partial covered on 4+), i now must roll to wound...i assume i now pick up as many dice as units that are hit and continue "to wound" as normal with these dice.

i suppose this makes the most sense, but i also toyed with the idea of rolling a single die and all affected units take a wound if successful.

well anyway thx for the clarification

god dammit, noob, read ure rulebook it is obviously stated on page 1928!

JK

You roll for them as normal, and roll the dice as a batch. once you determine the models that are hit, its treated like any other model.
Hope this helps!

Yes, you roll one die per model hit. Also note that the defending player can take the casualties from anywhere in the unit that's within weapon range. They don't need to be among the models physically hit by the marker. I know you didn't ask about this, but it's a common misunderstanding, so I just thought I'd give you a heads-up.

Roll to hit.

If you hit, determine hits and partials, then roll for partials.

Once you've rolled for partials, add up the amount of hits and partials, then roll to wound that many times.

Done.

sweet, thx guys

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Also note that the defending player can take the casualties from anywhere in the unit that's within weapon range. They don't need to be among the models physically hit by the marker. I know you didn't ask about this, but it's a common misunderstanding, so I just thought I'd give you a heads-up.

Back in 3rd ed you had to take the casualties from under the marker, which I think is why a lot of casual gamers who’ve been playing it a while make that mistake.

Yeah, sometimes prior knowledge is harmful. Look at all the "Can Guardian HW platforms go in transports?" threads the 4th ed Eldar dex spawned, through no real fault of its own.

Mannahnin wrote:

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Also note that the defending player can take the casualties from anywhere in the unit that's within weapon range. They don't need to be among the models physically hit by the marker. I know you didn't ask about this, but it's a common misunderstanding, so I just thought I'd give you a heads-up.

Back in 3rd ed you had to take the casualties from under the marker, which I think is why a lot of casual gamers who’ve been playing it a while make that mistake.

Will this change in fifth? I didnt know that, and its pretty illogical. If you're lucky enough to land a basilisk shot on a heavy weapons guy, it seems logical that he should be hit, and not the useless squad members.

Sorry for the Bump.

One thing I like about the 5th edition is the no more "jumping out of the way" rule for blast markers more fun for my particle whip and submunition rounds!

You sure about that? I hadn't heard anything to that effect. Can someone confirm?

blinky wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Also note that the defending player can take the casualties from anywhere in the unit that's within weapon range. They don't need to be among the models physically hit by the marker. I know you didn't ask about this, but it's a common misunderstanding, so I just thought I'd give you a heads-up.

Back in 3rd ed you had to take the casualties from under the marker, which I think is why a lot of casual gamers who’ve been playing it a while make that mistake.

Will this change in fifth? I didnt know that, and its pretty illogical. If you're lucky enough to land a basilisk shot on a heavy weapons guy, it seems logical that he should be hit, and not the useless squad members.

Sorry for the Bump.

Uh yeah that changed in 4th edition and is getting even more abstract in 5th edition. All hits always on a squad can be pulled from anywhere in the unit. In 5th edition this includes models that are out of LOS.

Remember that the actual location of the models on the table is a rough representation and that when models are killed other models move up to take their places.

rapey_the_ORK wrote:One thing I like about the 5th edition is the no more "jumping out of the way" rule for blast markers more fun for my particle whip and submunition rounds!

tegeus-Cromis wrote:You sure about that? I hadn't heard anything to that effect. Can someone confirm?

Yeah, I have no idea what he's talking about. Unless he means the fact that when you assign a wound to a particular model and then fail its saving throw that model is dead; weapon, equipment and all.

But unless every model in the unit takes a wound the owning player gets to choose who takes the wounds so that heavy weapon model in your squad probably isn't going to take a save unless the blast weapon wounds every model in the unit.

yakface wrote:

rapey_the_ORK wrote:One thing I like about the 5th edition is the no more "jumping out of the way" rule for blast markers more fun for my particle whip and submunition rounds!

tegeus-Cromis wrote:You sure about that? I hadn't heard anything to that effect. Can someone confirm?

Yeah, I have no idea what he's talking about. Unless he means the fact that when you assign a wound to a particular model and then fail its saving throw that model is dead; weapon, equipment and all.

But unless every model in the unit takes a wound the owning player gets to choose who takes the wounds so that heavy weapon model in your squad probably isn't going to take a save unless the blast weapon wounds every model in the unit.

I just heard from someone that partially covered models will be hit automatically as well.

rapey_the_ORK wrote:
I just heard from someone that partially covered models will be hit automatically as well.

You are absolutely correct sir, I just didn't know that's what you were getting at with your previous comment.


That said, hits by blast weapons can be allocated to any model in the unit (even the guys out of LOS) so when you place a blast marker you're really just assessing how *many* models you hit in the unit rather than *which* models are actually hit.

yakface wrote:

rapey_the_ORK wrote:
I just heard from someone that partially covered models will be hit automatically as well.

You are absolutely correct sir, I just didn't know that's what you were getting at with your previous comment.


That said, hits by blast weapons can be allocated to any model in the unit (even the guys out of LOS) so when you place a blast marker you're really just assessing how *many* models you hit in the unit rather than *which* models are actually hit.

Stink you can't snipe off that annoying hidden power fist aye?

rapey_the_ORK wrote:


Stink you can't snipe off that annoying hidden power fist aye?

Yes and no. As I said, if you cause enough wounds on the unit so every model takes one wound then the opposing player has to allocate wounds to each model in the unit, including the powerfist guy. If the powerfist guy fails his save he does die.

It's kind of similar to the 'torrent of fire' rule we have now in 4th edition but a bit cleaner to understand (IMHO).

I added a little detail:

MinMax wrote:Roll to hit.

If you hit, determine hits and partials, then roll for partials.

Once you've rolled for partials, add up the amount of hits and partials, then roll to wound that many times against majority toughness & saves.

Done.

rapey_the_ORK wrote:
Stink you can't snipe off that annoying hidden power fist aye?

You can, but placing a blast template on top doesn't bake the cookie.
You either use the torrent of fire rule or
range sniping: make sure the fist is only target in range, or as few possible other models also in range.
Other options exist but are army specific like mindwar, assassins, zogworth's curse, monolith, ...

I do find it odd that casualties can be pulled from anywhere (even out of LOS) because the models are only a "rough representation" of the location of the squad members. And yet at the same time they are moving to true LOS for spotting.

If a model is only a rough representation of a location, then why does a laser pointer through a window in a building tell you that it can be seen?

Because blasts are not meant to be sniper weapons. If casualties had to come from under the template you would always have them targeting the special weapons, upgrade characters, whatever. It went a little too far the other way in 4th ed where the rules meant the special weapons guy was always the last one killed.

"Sir, Jones bought it."

"Ok, Franklin, get behind that Heavy bolter/Autocannon/Lascannon and pull the trigger."

"But, Sir, it wasn't mine to begin with!."

"So? Jones had it to begin with and he only hit half the time.....Give it a spin, son."

(Adjust for Marines et al.)

I was fine with the rules.

Democratus wrote:I do find it odd that casualties can be pulled from anywhere (even out of LOS) because the models are only a "rough representation" of the location of the squad members. And yet at the same time they are moving to true LOS for spotting.

If a model is only a rough representation of a location, then why does a laser pointer through a window in a building tell you that it can be seen?

It doesn't. It tells you the *whole squad* in the building can be seen. Even if "that guy" in the window is shot down another guy hops into his firing position at the window (if you remove another casualty instead).

True LOS is used because it emphasizes the 3D nature of miniature gaming. It emphasizes that we play with miniatures on a 3D landscape and that is all pretty unique.

yakface wrote:

rapey_the_ORK wrote:


Stink you can't snipe off that annoying hidden power fist aye?

Yes and no. As I said, if you cause enough wounds on the unit so every model takes one wound then the opposing player has to allocate wounds to each model in the unit, including the powerfist guy. If the powerfist guy fails his save he does die.

It's kind of similar to the 'torrent of fire' rule we have now in 4th edition but a bit cleaner to understand (IMHO).

Hmm, do you meen that if I have a small unit in wich all models are special (say a guard command platoon) I have to roll each models save separatelly (or with colored dice)?

That would really slow down the game.

The best thing about the torrent of fire was that it was just one wound that could be placed and had to be accounted for separately.

I hope we will still roll a bunch of dice to hit, a bunch of dice to wound and then a bunch of dice to save and not untill that point start choosing the actual models that die (with the exception of torrent of fire naturally).

fester wrote:
I hope we will still roll a bunch of dice to hit, a bunch of dice to wound and then a bunch of dice to save and not untill that point start choosing the actual models that die (with the exception of torrent of fire naturally).

Unless all the members in the unit are identical (same stats, weapons and equipment), you are hoping in vain.

It really doesn't slow things down significantly. For the example of the guard command squad, you just do something like, 'okay, going clockwise from the commander/going down the line left to right/etc'
*roll*
*roll*
*roll*
*roll*
*roll*

MinMax wrote:Roll to hit.

If you hit, determine hits and partials, then roll for partials.

Once you've rolled for partials, add up the amount of hits and partials, then roll to wound that many times.

Done.

You forgot the step to laugh as you descibe how the enemy is blown apart or eaten from the inside by snottlings or melted.

Steelmage99 wrote:"Sir, Jones bought it."

"Ok, Franklin, get behind that Heavy bolter/Autocannon/Lascannon and pull the trigger."

"But, Sir, it wasn't mine to begin with!."

"So? Jones had it to begin with and he only hit half the time.....Give it a spin, son."

that was funny.

It basically translates into large mobs protect their leaders and special weapon guys better, while smaller squads are going to lose their special weapons/leaders faster.

Go orks. (until you get rapid fired to death after killing a 60 point IG squad...)

Doesn't the particle whip allow for model sniping though? Something like it says the model under the hole takes a S10 Ap1 hit or some such? I'm no necron expert, I just recall the discussion on YMDC. Would 5ed allocation make that whole issue moot?