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I've been debating restarting my GKs, and I have these incinerator
models that I painted up and if I wanted to stick them in a 10 man GK
squad in a regular Land Raider together with Termies in a Crusader,
am I wasting my time with the GKs?

You'll be wasting your time with Landraiders if you only bring a single one for them.

in 1500 and above I use at least 3 with my GK's and I'm doing pretty darned well....and its still a brand new army.

Land raiders definatly benefit from the unwritten 'rule of 2' in 40k.

So Termies in LRC and then 10 Gks with 2 Incinerators in
the other?

Why use a crusader? Are you trying to get your terminators into CC?

To put 8 Termies in it for CC.

Or 7+HQ.

malfred wrote:To put 8 Termies in it for CC.

Or 7+HQ.

Yecchh! I guess if you're trying to do that, then yea, a crusader is a good idea so your terminators can use its Frag Launchers.

I have to say, that I really dont like GK's for their HtH, which is great, but their str is really in shooting. HtH is too risky for the pricey models.

My terminator squad is 5 terminators with Psycannon, Brother captain with psycannon, and an attached Independant brother captain with yet another psycannon.

....standing right at 32-36 inches away blasing away with 9 Psycannon rounds every turn and actually having their "shrouding" save them from shooting attacks more than 50% of the time.

I try not to get into HtH until the enemy has weathered my shooting first, then they're rewarded for getting into CC with my expensive marines....with STR 6 power weapons and WS 5.

use them stormbolters, they're awesome, the GK shooting game is awesome and lots of fun.

It's really my opinion, but HtH with these guys should really be the last resort, HtH is just too dangerous with all the power weapons out there when all you have is Int 4. It's a GREAT last resort to have to rely on, but their shooting is just to good to pass up if you're doing it right.

I figure I can play both ends with Squad Psycannons and
Termie assault. Maybe that's splitting, but I posted to learn
if I should/could do it.

Remember, I'm out of 40k practice, so this could all be folly.

Squaddie Psycannons encourage you to

1. Get closer (within 18", where you dont wanna be)

or

2. lose mobility (standing still for the 36" range)

You also lose your close combat weapon, and you pay 25 pts on top....not worth it in my opinion.


I think a better special weapon than either the incinerator OR the Psycannon on PAGK is the Justicar's Stombolter. Give him a targetter and Psycannon rounds for 10 pts making his Stormbolter AP 4 and ignoring invulns. He retains his power weapon, and doesnt give up a thing.

Terminators make AWESOME counterattack units, but planning to take on the whole enemy army with 5 terminators? Assault is not the GK forte', people see str 6 and ws 5 when they look at the army, that's the first mistake and its why so many people consider the army to be crap. GK's have HORRENDOUS anti-personel shooting, HORRENDOUS! Furthermore, if you do it right, you can actually make shrouding useful.

I thought it was funny as hell, one of my games last week playing an eldar player, using a 10 man harlequin squad.

Like around turn 3, his fireprism trys to blast away with a linked blast at my terminators...shrouding saves them, the shot was 48" away.

Two of the casualties attributed to the terminator psycannons....a sniped eldrad, and 10 harlequins who didnt consolidate far enough after blasting a unit in HtH.

Grey Knight shooting is HUGE.

Ah, forgot about those things. Thanks.

I disagree with some of what Deahshane said. Stern, a GM and 6 terminators delivered via Crusader is nasty. It really depends on how you see your army working. Assault GKs (which can be done) features large squads in LRs being delivered into combat. Shooty GKs focuses more on smaller squads with Psycannons backed up with Dreadnoughts.

And no, I don't think you "waste" a Land Raider on PAGK.

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:I disagree with some of what Deahshane said. Stern, a GM and 6 terminators delivered via Crusader is nasty. It really depends on how you see your army working. Assault GKs (which can be done) features large squads in LRs being delivered into combat. Shooty GKs focuses more on smaller squads with Psycannons backed up with Dreadnoughts.

You're Psycho! (I mean this in a nice way though!)

You're advising 577 pts (before wargear) worth of troops (totaling 11 wounds) riding in a 255 pt transport? FOR ASSAULT? Thats 823 pts, after wargear you're talking about a full HALF of your 1850 pts assuming that this is the size of the army. Tell me, what happens when someone gets lucky and pops your LR,...besides shaking hands, blaming dice, and moving on to the next game? The very definition of "eggs all in one basket".

Listen closely, this is exactly the mentality that makes people think that pure GK armies suck so bad folks. The army is underpowered, but this sort of plan is BEGGING your opponent to prove it.

What happens when that squad gets full on jumped by Genestealers? Harlequins? Bloodletters? Death Company? 2 (or maybe even 1) Hive Tyrants? or even ROUGH RIDERS. They're hurt bad, possibly (probably in some cases) wiped out while they're trying to get their points back in the form of killing an entire half of your opponents troops. Worst case, they wipe out whatever they DO manage to get a charge off (not surprising considering the points thrown at a single unit) against since the Crusader defied all laws of probabliity and made it close enough for a HtH drop. They wipe out the target and are left standing there (especially considering 5th edition) ready to get plasma'd and rapid fired off of the table. Good game.

GK terminators are a TARGET. Opponents see them, and $$ see $ dollar $ signs $$, they're much more useful shooting and waiting for a choice moment to counterattack. It makes them harder to target, harder to get to, and harder to get points from if they're lobbing lead (and magic lead) at maximum ranges.

Scruffy, PLEASE dont get mad, but that is really the most 'noob'ish of advice one could give for using a squad of GK terminators. It wont work against ANY decent player with competence and a well built army. Ask any player known on this board for solid tactical advice if they'd be anything but thrilled to see a crusader with passengers as you described 24" away from their army. It's an "instant win" coupon for any good player. Of course, most people think seeing a pure GK army across the table means "instant win", I'm trying to change that as far as my army is concerned.

And no, I don't think you "waste" a Land Raider on PAGK.

absolutley correct here, so long as there's more than 1.

(terminators actually dont really need a LR, they're better off riding thier sneakers, shooting psy-rounds)

Hey, no offense taken, I (unlike some people) can admit when I'm wrong. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear though. I'm not advocating running the squad willy-nilly up the center unsupported into the teeth of the entire enemy army.

I think anyone who's played 40k for more than a day knows the maxim of "1 tank is a target, 2 is trouble, 3 is a nightmare," or something similar to that effect.

With GK armies (not that I can claim a ton of experience) you really have to focus. It's either long/mid range shooting and using shroud or its full on assault. I'm not saying that shooting is the wrong approach. As a matter of fact, I think it's actually quite a good approach. I'm simply saying it's not the ONLY approach.

Throw the Super-unit in a crusader and two PAGK squads in either Crusaders or regular LRs. Yeah, that takes most of your army (1773 points with no wargear on 2 10-man PAGK squads) but alot of armies cannot stop 3 AV14 (smoked) vehicles in a single turn.

It's a points failure system, sure and if it makes you squeamish, you could probably tone down the super unit to bulk up on say another squad of PAGKs or a "Shooty" squad of Terminators but it is not going to just die to any number of things.

First off, Hive Tyrant get mauled by 2 Str 6 force weapons and 6 normal Str 6 power wepaons. The only one that basically has a chance is the full on winged hive tyrant with implant attacks and the works- maybe (I have no idea what stats are for tyranids). Fexes? gone. Stealers? well, who said you HAD to charge everything at once? Your crusaders and PAGK can spit out a lot of very "anti-genestealer" stuff.

Bloodletters? You mean the things that die because they are -1 initiative against sacred incense? Honestly, I'm asking the question because it's been a while since I got to look at the DH codex. Does the -1 effect the whole squad or just the models in B2B?

In 5th, you're ramming blocking transports out of the way with an AV14 vehicle moving flat out, the new damage tables, and the fact that you can "screen" your expensive big unit behind two other LRs seems to mitigate some of the deliver conundrum.

Once you get into CC, you have a mass of high AV vehicles and combats from multi-charges clogging up fire lanes.

Deadshane, I'm not saying it's superior to shooting. I'm saying it's a (somewhat risky) option that can win big. And my original post was in response to wether or not PAGK "waste" a LR.

I'm sorry, what does PAGK refer to?

duh, finally got it. Power Armor, neh?

One tank is a target,
two tanks are trouble,
three tanks are a nightmare.


Except when you have only three tanks as possible targets, that nightmare is easily banished. Even with AV 14 being harder to crack, you have the entire volume of the whole enemy army on your three tanks.

I am not convinced that even 3 AV 14 tanks are enough to withstand that.

maybe if you have 4-6 landraiders... but 900+ points for a single unit seems too easy to destroy for this player.

but that's maybe why I never played GK...

Shane there is nothing wrong with taking an LRC over an LR. The LRC but it is the best assault boat in the game bar none... the additional transport capacity has its advantages too. I can see the case for two plain Jane LRs if they are primarily intended to sit back and shoot. The LRC is one tank that will not be affected by the new rule for defensive weapons, which is yet another perk.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Shane there is nothing wrong with taking an LRC over an LR. The LRC but it is the best assault boat in the game bar none... the additional transport capacity has its advantages too. I can see the case for two plain Jane LRs if they are primarily intended to sit back and shoot. The LRC is one tank that will not be affected by the new rule for defensive weapons, which is yet another perk.

G

Whew, now I feel better, I was afraid that the Crusader would lose its ability to move and fire its MULTI-MELTA, Hurricanes, AND TWIN ASSAULT CANNONS at the same target without having to rely on the machine spirit.

(just picking on you there GBF )

...but we've had this discussion before. You're still not understanding my point of veiw. If you arent planning to assault, and want to maintain distance (thereby making a LR more difficult to pop) the basic LR is a better choice. Grey Knights dont have the numbers OR power to blast away the opposition in close combat, not against a good opponent. If you're going to do that with Grey Knights....well...I guess the Crusader is the way to go. The real power of Grey Knights is in their shooting though, not close combat. Making the basic LR a better choice....for them.

Will "free" Landraider transports be an option in a v5 codex, though?

The GRand Preceptor suggested to me that such could be
the case in the future.

FREE landraiders? That would be quite nice.

G

I'm guessing "free" as in "doesn't take up a Heavy slot."

Janthkin wrote:I'm guessing "free" as in "doesn't take up a Heavy slot."

Thank you.

I think this is the most actual 40k I've talked in years.

It would actually be pretty funny to put Stern in a Crusader alone, and run him up the field screaming. I can see a lot of opponants getting all psyched out, worried about a pile of GK Termies popping out, only to have it be one man in a tank being shot at so hard.

It would work particularly well if you actually scream everytime you move it.
"WOOAAAHHHH HERE IT COMES! PAIN TRAIN'S COMIN, PAIN TRAIN'S COMIN! WOO WOO! WOO WOO!"

Painting him to look like Terry Tate is entirely optional though.

One thing I am thinking about though is just how scary stealers would really be to that upber tank of termies in 5th. They no longer can hurt the tank at all (Str4+6pen+3rend max right?) and if you are careful you can move the tank up, pop out the termies, unload a crap tonne of assault cannon, hurricane and storm bolter fire, plus any incinerators or psycannons you have, then assault. If you tank shock the stealers before hand, you can even get them clumped up for the incinerator shot, which even with extended carapace blows right through them.
Then, when they are attacking back, they have to hit you (4+ right?), wound on 4+ or rend on a 6+, then you have saves. That's not too terrible, unless you are facing more than 1 unit of stealers at a time. Choosing your target carefully might be the key in this case.

Just use chimeras now when transports wont be dedicated to the unit you buy them with.

Chimera's are way to flimsy to trust a full terminator unit to.

....bad idea if you're trying to get them into assault, they'll never make it.

You are right Shane but still it is a deal point wise.

BTW Stealers hit GK on 3+... WS6 versus WS5.

G