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What are some good combos for this beast?

Dark insanity + armor of khorne + axe/sword/immortal fury?

any suggestions?

I prefer the obsidian armor (no magic weapons) and immortal fury (reroll to hit)
Thats all you really need.

I can't believe you need a thread for the equipment of a Bloodthirster. Armour of Khorne, Immortal Fury, Firestorm Blade, Spellbreaker is nearly the only viable combination in tournament play.

I actually prefer Obsidian Armor, Immortal Fury, and the Collar of Khorne.

Still every time I think about this subject the first words that come to mind are: "Damn High Elf FAQ!!"

What does the high elf have to do with it? (As a very irregular fantasy player...)

High Elves don't have anything to do with it. Any Daemon player who is more worried of High Elves than Vampire Counts needs to have his head checked. A Bloodthirster without flaming S7 is nearly useless against VC, and will most likely get killed.

Redbeard wrote:What does the high elf have to do with it? (As a very irregular fantasy player...)

High Elves have access to magic items and units that are immune to flaming attaks. As in, they ignore them completely, not just the flaming part.

Therion wrote:High Elves don't have anything to do with it. Any Daemon player who is more worried of High Elves than Vampire Counts needs to have his head checked. A Bloodthirster without flaming S7 is nearly useless against VC, and will most likely get killed.

But as Therion notes negating regen is infinitely more important than worrying about dragon princes and whatever other elfs your bloodthirster will be leaving to the rest of the army. S7 is obviously pretty important too.

- Salvage

But as Therion notes negating regen is infinitely more important than worrying about dragon princes and whatever other elfs your bloodthirster will be leaving to the rest of the army. S7 is obviously pretty important too.

Na. I wouldn't be to worried about the highly mobile thirster avoiding the regenerating unit until the army is in position to take it (he can kill the BSB in one round pretty easy, i rarely have problems with the guy)

The problem is the equally highly mobile lord on star dragon chasing you around the table cause you are completely afraid of being pasted and therefore seed most of the table to the high elf.

And demons have a huge advantage over the vamps just because of who they are. Not so against the high elves.

Na. I wouldn't be to worried about the highly mobile thirster avoiding the regenerating unit until the army is in position to take it (he can kill the BSB in one round pretty easy, i rarely have problems with the guy)

6-7 static resolution. BK unit champion accepts your challenge and regenerates half the wounds. You lose, bigtime, and suffer instability wounds. VC turn the champion is summoned back and challenges your BT. BT dies to instability. Think before you post. Alternatively, stop playing against retards.

The problem is the equally highly mobile lord on star dragon chasing you around the table cause you are completely afraid of being pasted and therefore seed most of the table to the high elf.

I'd argue that the Black Knights are more mobile than the Dragon. Atleast a whole lot more unpredictable. Not only are they ethereal whenever needed but five or six attempts at a Danse per turn gives them the ability to charge units stationed even right behind them. A BT without S7 flaming is only going to cause 2 unsaved wounds on the unit, which means he's losing by five every turn. What kind of help are you going to bring that is not going to get massacred by the Knights and Vampires in the unit? Here's a suggestion: Bring the Skulltaker and a Bloodthirster with S7 flaming. Failing that, don't bring anything and run for your life. Oh wait, Daemons can't flee and the Knights are charging on turn two.

And demons have a huge advantage over the vamps just because of who they are. Not so against the high elves.

What kind of advantage exactly? If you're talking about fear & itp issues, the undead have the exact same advantage against Daemons. You think Ghouls care who they fight? They will kill every single Daemon unit out there point by point, and unlike Daemons they keep coming back nearly for free.

As far as High Elves are concerned, they're absolutely no match for any solid tournament armies played by tournament players, and that's reason enough for noone to worry about them. Daemons have plenty of answers to Star Dragons, and in the hypothetical situation that they didn't, it would be a moot point. Why? High Elves will never make it to the top tables of a tournament so these two armies will most likely never meet.

I'd argue that the Black Knights are more mobile than the Dragon. Atleast a whole lot more unpredictable. Not only are they ethereal whenever needed but five or six attempts at a Danse per turn gives them the ability to charge units stationed even right behind them. A BT without S7 flaming is only going to cause 2 unsaved wounds on the unit, which means he's losing by five every turn. What kind of help are you going to bring that is not going to get massacred by the Knights and Vampires in the unit? Here's a suggestion: Bring the Skulltaker and a Bloodthirster with S7 flaming. Failing that, don't bring anything and run for your life. Oh wait, Daemons can't flee and the Knights are charging on turn

What kind of knight unit are you running? for that kind of combat res you have to have 20 knights, a warbanner, and the BSB. Thats a huge investement (over 800 pts by my count).
Its not particularly hard for the thirster to avoid that one unit or at the very least hit it in the flank and hit it in the front with another ranked unit.

The advantage of demons vs vampires is that unless the vamps bring a hoard or a huge ammount of magic (in both cases that regenerating unit is out because of pt chost) then the demons will be in a 1v1 fight where their superior units win the day. Ghouls lose to letters or plague bearers with hearlds in them and the thirster beats vamp lords hands down (and should probabally be gunning for the guy too). Also the horrors can put a dent in the vamps magic phase. At least enough to make dancing non-guaranteed.

And there are many decent high elves builds and players out there that can make it to the top tables.

What kind of knight unit are you running? for that kind of combat res you have to have 20 knights, a warbanner, and the BSB. Thats a huge investement (over 800 pts by my count).

Standard unit. 10 Black Knights, Wight King, Vampire/Vampire Lord, depending on setup. Outnumber, rank, standard, battle standard, war banner, walking death. Don't be surprised if you see an even bigger unit, meaning two ranks.

Its not particularly hard for the thirster to avoid that one unit

Yes it is, unless he plans to stay out of the game while the Knights pummel through the Daemon army. It seems to me you've never played against competitive VC. The VC player can allow the Bloodthirster to rear charge the Knights. If he doesn't have Firestorm Blade, he's dead. Experienced VC players often 'offer' newbies a flank charge to this unit, because they know they'll win. A Star Dragon to the flank means one dead Star Dragon. You'll never get enough resolution from the unit to cause any significant damage, and once you're in a challenge with the unit champion you're breaking. Hello, 6 or 7 static resolution, WS7, T4, 2+ AS, 4+ regen. You need 30 WS7 S7 attacks to kill FIVE models, which means you'll be getting a draw if you're in the flank (because of the BSB they don't crumble even if they lose by one). Let me break it down to you pal, there's only two answers to this unit in Warhammer. Massed flaming attacks through either Firestorm Blade or Banner of Hellfire, or try to keep the victory points it racks up to a minimum by playing points denial. The latter is as hard as anything gets, as they can reform+Danse every turn to any direction.

The advantage of demons vs vampires is that unless the vamps bring a hoard or a huge ammount of magic (in both cases that regenerating unit is out because of pt chost) then the demons will be in a 1v1 fight where their superior units win the day.

Incorrect. You can get 11-12 dice of magic and all the three power items, including the regen banner.

Ghouls lose to letters or plague bearers with hearlds in them and the thirster beats vamp lords hands down (and should probabally be gunning for the guy too).

The moment the Daemon player took anything else than Horrors as his compulsory core choices he conceded the game.

And there are many decent high elves builds and players out there that can make it to the top tables.

What exactly? There's one competitive build and it relies on drawing against nothing but melee armies. High Elves are one of the weakest armies in Warhammer.

Yes it is, unless he plans to stay out of the game while the Knights pummel through the Daemon army. It seems to me you've never played against competitive VC. The VC player can allow the Bloodthirster to rear charge the Knights. If he doesn't have Firestorm Blade, he's dead. Experienced VC players often 'offer' newbies a flank charge to this unit, because they know they'll win. A Star Dragon to the flank means one dead Star Dragon. You'll never get enough resolution from the unit to cause any significant damage, and once you're in a challenge with the unit champion you're breaking. Hello, 6 or 7 static resolution, WS7, T4, 2+ AS, 4+ regen. You need 30 WS7 S7 attacks to kill FIVE models, which means you'll be getting a draw if you're in the flank (because of the BSB they don't crumble even if they lose by one). Let me break it down to you pal, there's only two answers to this unit in Warhammer. Massed flaming attacks through either Firestorm Blade or Banner of Hellfire, or try to keep the victory points it racks up to a minimum by playing points denial. The latter is as hard as anything gets, as they can reform+Danse every turn to any direction.

Again, this is a hugly expensive unit.
You have 8 black knights, full cmd, warbanner - 289
BSB with regen banner - 257 (i gave him horse and armor too)
Vamp lord with walking death and helm of commandment (he would have other stuff too or you dont get your 11 power die) - well just call him 475 until you say different.
Thats 1021 pts which gets me an amazing ammoutn of guys.

My thirster charges you in the rear (you said you would let him and it wouldnt be to hard) I get 2 combat res to your 5. Lose by 3.
I kill about 2 a turn. Lose by 1 every turn cause you dont kill anyone. Ok.
On the charge I kill 2. Your turn i kill the champ. My turn again I kill 2 (now you dont have numbers, and since you cant raise units if i am standing there you cant raise back the champ) From this point on I can kill you with ease as I just keep issuing challenges. Either the BSB accepts or the lord does (or champ does and dies in a heartbeat). I can kill whoever accepts easily. With the extra 500 pts to make this a fair fight I take enough magic guys to easily overpower your vamp lord so he cant raise to many back.


And since you have 1k points in chars (to get your power dice and your regen banner) and a 300 pt unit what else do you have. What stops the thirster and hounds from crushing them while other stuff delays the knights, and in the process destroying your magical offensive ability. Ill come back to the 1000 pt unit later when i wish it.

And for high elves wouldnt a good army just throw teclis and his vauls unmaking at your knights (no more regen) then bolt thrower you to death (should take 2 turns with curse of arror atraction)

So what is your full vamp army btw. I want to see how you fit all this in a 2k army and still have enough to protect the other two chars (cause when they drop magical supremecy drops)

My thirster charges you in the rear

Really? Let's face it, it's more likely that the Black Knights charge the BT in the rear, than the opposite.

Other than that, your post confirmed that you don't know what you're talking about, so I have said all that I have to say about this subject. My 2K VC army has vamp lord, vamp, wight king, 3x ghouls, 10 black knights, 6 black knights, 5 dire wolves, 2 varghulfs. Sometimes I also use a Necromancer but then I drop a little something. I also play Daemons (the kind that can beat VC) but as a VC player normally I wouldn't fear them. Most Daemon armies will be hopelessly ineffective because of clueless players and their general misconceptions about the game.

Therion wrote:

My thirster charges you in the rear

Really? Let's face it, it's more likely that the Black Knights charge the BT in the rear, than the opposite.

Other than that, your post confirmed that you don't know what you're talking about, so I have said all that I have to say about this subject. My 2K VC army has vamp lord, vamp, wight king, 3x ghouls, 10 black knights, 6 black knights, 5 dire wolves, 2 varghulfs. Sometimes I also use a Necromancer but then I drop a little something. I also play Daemons (the kind that can beat VC) but as a VC player normally I wouldn't fear them. Most Daemon armies will be hopelessly ineffective because of clueless players and their general misconceptions about the game.

Great debate and I wouldn't want to put my 2 cents into whichever is better because i just recently restarted fantasy (was skaven). Basically you guys are debating whether your VC unit can kill the BT and how BT can beat that unit. You also said any chaos player not bringing Horrors or other core units that are not horrors will probably lose. If that's the case doesn't that apply to a lot of other armies since most of them dont have PD/DD generating cores? I guess what would be the correct way to approach/defeat this VC unit block? With my current army with pd9/dd6 (3 heralds tzeentch + 1 horror unit) I will try to thin the ranks with my flamers, use Uranon's t bolt to snipe chars or lore of fire the unit down to size. Then when time is right i charge in with the hounds and BT and hope for the best. Any thoughts? btw, in the shop there are couple of VC players but i havent played them yet so they may have similar builds..

Lore of fire doesnt actually do well against the t4 2+ save knights. The best is acutally the 12+ metal spell (its flaming).
Will destroy the unit in two castings.

O, therion. Please explain how my post confirmed I know nothing.
Keep in mind you said

The VC player can allow the Bloodthirster to rear charge the Knights...Experienced VC players often 'offer' newbies a flank charge to this unit, because they know they'll win

Given this, the fact that I will have two lvl 6-8 DD, and the fact that your army contains 2 casters how do you live...
O, and relying on my cluelessness is not a strategy.

The VC player can allow the Bloodthirster to rear charge the Knights...Experienced VC players often 'offer' newbies a flank charge to this unit, because they know they'll win

As you figured it out yourself, the S6 Bloodthirster will lose even when rear charging. Of course there's no reason to let you do that when there's the option of charging the BT, but it's not a tragedy if it happens. The flank means the BT loses more. Casualties can be replaced with magic to an extent.

Given this, the fact that I will have two lvl 6-8 DD, and the fact that your army contains 2 casters how do you live...

The other generates 6 dice, and the other 2 dice? That's 11 dice with Black Periapt. Please, please... You know absolutely nothing of VC, and yet you keep giving 'expert' advice here. Do you have no shame?

O, and relying on my cluelessness is not a strategy.

I don't know where you got that, but it's actually untrue, like everything you say. Clueless players like you often make so many mistakes on their own that one can just wait for them to self-implode during a game. I on the other hand made the mistake of coming back to post a couple times on this forum again, and now find myself in a never-ending pointless discussion with a player who has obviously never played in competitive environments, obviously never will, and refuses to listen to reason. Post your 2K Daemon army in the army lists forum.

Then when time is right i charge in with the hounds and BT and hope for the best.

It's not a real problem if you play a proper Daemon list with all the always taken units and upgrades. I've already said there's only a few good counters to VC, and Daemons have a big one, the Firestorm Blade. Cypher of course refuses to use it since he's both clueless and new to the competitive scene. It's a bad combination to be, but you know some people have to take the hard route.

The other generates 6 dice, and the other 2 dice? That's 11 dice with Black Periapt. Please, please... You know absolutely nothing of VC, and yet you keep giving 'expert' advice here. Do you have no shame?

Werent you the one extolling the virtures of forbidden lore a while ago.
So now you have a lvl 4 with 2 extra dice and a lvl 2. You have droped walking death (so the thirster now ties all combats in rear and loses by 1 in flank, not a horrible thing at ld 9) and you dont have a guaranteed van hels. What happens when you dont roll the o so useful spell???

I do know enough about vampires. Planning your strategy arround a spell you might not get isnt the best of plans.

Clueless players like you

Awww that hurts coming from a guy who is relying on 1000 pts of never miscasting (and miraculously always rolling the correct spell) dudes with extra points in gear they can't afford (so which one has walking death again...) to kill a 500 pt thirster through the cunning plan of letting me charge you in the rear...
Im done with you.

And Im not saying I would refuse to use it. Just that it isnt the end all of weapons.

Awww that hurts coming from a guy who is relying on 1000 pts of never miscasting (and miraculously always rolling the correct spell) dudes

Black Knights a little more than 300p. Vampire 200p. Wight 250p. The Vampire Lord is not with the unit (in my list). THINK...BEFORE...POSTING.

Just that it isnt the end all of weapons.

It practically is. You could go with the Axe of Khorne and play an outlasting game with the BT but that would require the Standard of Chaos Glory nearby.

Just another quick thing to add in here:
The flaming sword works wonders against the annoyance of nettlings treeman ancient. Rather than having to avoid/think hard about charging this guy, the flaming thirster can go right on in and tear him up, nabbing 500 victory points which, otherwise, might require a higher allocation of resources, if it weren't avoided entirely.

Woodelves are not the army to beat, but that treeman character is common enough that the flaming sword might be worth it.

Finally, Plague bearers with a herald now regenerate, as you all know. Specifically, the herald is rater hard to kill given his toughness, ward and regeneration. The thirster with the flaming sword will go through him in a turn guaranteed, and can probably allocate 4 attacks on the herald, and his remaining attacks on the unit, which having lost its regeneration, is much more likely to give up CR from kills (i.e. a unit of flanking flesh hounds).

What I'm not sure about, is how well this character would do against a war altar with speculum wielding pope. I assume that the thirster would ignore the old man and go for the steam tanks, but again, that's a large chunk of potential points that is dictating where your thirster goes, and the flaming sword does nothing to counter this.

I realize that the conversation up to this point has been about the top table armies (vampires), so please don't mistake this as a major argument for the sword, however, it does have a bearing, I think, on the original poster's question.

What I'm not sure about, is how well this character would do against a war altar with speculum wielding pope.

I assume that the thirster would ignore the old man and go for the steam tanks

Exactly so. What you do is nuke the pope with 12 Flamers (the Altar is a large target so its easy to hit), and once the Altar is dead (less than 2 turns of fire) the Flamers can finish the pope in melee. While the Flamers are on the pope, the BT is trying to dodge some cannonballs and kill some Steam Tanks. I would wait a couple turns before bringing the BT out from his hiding place. Even in this case, the BT benefits from the Firestorm Blade's strength factor when fighting T6 1+ save models.

back to the VC. Sorry if I sound like a newbie against VC since I played them only once... Isn't it better to gun for the general in my case with the bloodthirster and kill it in single combat asap? With Immortal fury, flame sword and obsidian armor I think the bloodthirster has a good chance of killing the general... even if the bloodthirster dies by CR or by whatever model in that unit(after killing the general) wouldnt the fact that he offed a general and undead crumbling make it all that worthwhile? Again I am not experienced against VC so not sure if players "hide" their generals or they are that hard to kill etc.... Maybe give me a better perspective on the VC general?

You'll never get to the general - he WILL be in a unit with a unit champion, who WILL challenge your Bloodthirster, and get raised, and challenge again, and then Mr. Bloodthirster will crumble to instability.

Janthkin wrote:You'll never get to the general - he WILL be in a unit with a unit champion, who WILL challenge your Bloodthirster, and get raised, and challenge again, and then Mr. Bloodthirster will crumble to instability.

ic. so how do i off him? I guess "sniping" magics like uranon's t-bolt or magic affects every model in unit? And is a VC army overly cheesy if it has like 15pd and 9dd? and how do i counter that without being cheesy?

The only way to reliably get the general is to hit him with a unit that has a combat char in base with him and another guy to accept the challenges (but you cant issue a challenge for obvious reasons). Without that he is a pain. My personal favirot is the high elf lord with the white blade and talisman of loec in a unit of immune to fear&terror white lions. The vamp usually gets killing blowed because he has to reroll his saves. If it doesnt work I rarely run because the BSB is nearby.

Hey therion, change of topic.
How does your vamp army usually do against dwarves. Im thinking of starting them (its a change). Do anvils slow you and flaming cannonballs rain hell opon you until your army enchounters immune to fear hammerers or do you just steamroller over them throwing ghouls and zombies everywhere. And how much magic do you normally get off against the standard 7 DD (stealing one of your power die)

ic. so how do i off him??

You don't. It's not something anyone should go for either unless a) the game is a terrible mismatch and the VC army is poorly designed or the VC player is a donkey b) a fantastic opportunity suddenly presents itself during the game. The way I would always play against VC is collect as many points from their support units as possible and avoid engaging a lot of your resources against the units that get raised to full strength or more every turn. That means using magic, ranged firepower and fast hitty units to destroy small Black Knight units, Varghulfs, Wraiths and such, and avoiding the general's Ghoul bunker and the Wight King's Black Knight bunker. VC are by most standards the best army in Warhammer so one just has to adjust to the fact that massacring them is often out of the question, and instead go for a smaller victory. VC players do worry about units like Skulltaker on a Jugger leading some infantry, BT with Firestorm Blade, Flamers, and of course annoying armies like Fateweaver + Tz Heralds on chariots or wings + Flamers that will simply run and gun for the whole game, but an army that 'automatically' defeats a properly designed VC simply doesn't exist. An Empire army with popemobile, 3 wizards with lore of light, 3 units of knights, 4 cannons and 2 steam tanks, and a fully flaming Daemon army are the ones that present VC by far the toughest challenges. An Empire army like that even goes as far as having a clear advantage against VC. I'd still call VC as the stronger army overall, as they generally do very well no matter who they're up against.

How does your vamp army usually do against dwarves. Im thinking of starting them (its a change). Do anvils slow you and flaming cannonballs rain hell opon you

Anvil doesn't affect Black Knights, and the Ghouls usually are where they need to be after their free scout move and the first march move of the game. Dwarfs have huge problems against VC. Chaos Dwarfs are stronger because they can flood the table with small LD10 speed bumps and pack 6-8 Bolt Throwers and 2 Earth Shakers and a heck of a lot of fire/metal magic. The Chaos Dwarfs will also make mincemeat out of every Greater Daemon except the Fateweaver and thus make a tough opponent for them as well.

do you just steamroller over them throwing ghouls and zombies everywhere.

Summoning zombies isn't nearly as important in this edition of the VC book as it was in the previous one, but their new role is stronger in some respects. Zombies are now so easy to summon that once you tie something important in combat with them the combat will last the whole game. VC have a huge advantage in this respect, as whenever they encounter something they don't want to fight, they can just try to throw a Zombie unit at it. A Treeman Ancient or a Bloodthirster won't be able to get rid of 30 Zombies in his front sector, ever. Of course VC have the normal strategies (the ones that are available to every army) available to them as well, but VC also have these additional crutches they can use.

Usually armies like Dwarfs get beaten by a large block of WS7 Ghouls that re-roll to hit and ASF (because of Danse casts on them) and the Black Knight train that bounces around from unit to unit. As a Dwarf player I would follow the same advice as I gave earlier. Try to kill Varghulfs with flaming cannonballs and possibly kill a small non-regenerating BK unit, and then just hold on and hope for the game to end quick.

In my opinion the strongest points of new VC are quite obvious. WS7 wherever you need it. Regeneration for a bargain price and regeneration against crumble wounds. +1 to every cast and +2 to summons, meaning summons on 1 dice with huge casting values (sometimes requiring 3 dispel dice or a scroll to dispel safely) and danses on 2 dice. Re-casts mean that they can force a crucial move that decides the game, must like the Tomb Kings, except with more powerful units. This also means that VC can do a lot more with 10 dice than any other army. A Tzeentch magic phase with 18 dice is about as scary as VC with 10 dice. Because of all of the previous the VC really excel every turn in one place of the battlefield, and that's enough to win most games.

Hubris

Brightdarkness wrote:Hubris

Thanks. Comments like that really make posting on forums worth the trouble.

Personally I'm liking this thread for the amount of advice being given out and for the back-and-forth that's developing the advice further.

I just don't like the Firestorm Blade because of HE; locally there are a number of them and it's not so much the Dragon Princes I'm worried about, it's the Star Dragon. There were a number of them at the last event I was at, and I'd think they may become more popular as HE try to deal with Demons.

Therion wrote:

ic. so how do i off him??

You don't. It's not something anyone should go for either unless a) the game is a terrible mismatch and the VC army is poorly designed or the VC player is a donkey b) a fantastic opportunity suddenly presents itself during the game. The way I would always play against VC is collect as many points from their support units as possible and avoid engaging a lot of your resources against the units that get raised to full strength or more every turn. That means using magic, ranged firepower and fast hitty units to destroy small Black Knight units, Varghulfs, Wraiths and such, and avoiding the general's Ghoul bunker and the Wight King's Black Knight bunker. VC are by most standards the best army in Warhammer so one just has to adjust to the fact that massacring them is often out of the question, and instead go for a smaller victory. VC players do worry about units like Skulltaker on a Jugger leading some infantry, BT with Firestorm Blade, Flamers, and of course annoying armies like Fateweaver + Tz Heralds on chariots or wings + Flamers that will simply run and gun for the whole game, but an army that 'automatically' defeats a properly designed VC simply doesn't exist. An Empire army with popemobile, 3 wizards with lore of light, 3 units of knights, 4 cannons and 2 steam tanks, and a fully flaming Daemon army are the ones that present VC by far the toughest challenges. An Empire army like that even goes as far as having a clear advantage against VC. I'd still call VC as the stronger army overall, as they generally do very well no matter who they're up against.

But the black knight unit is fast and if you put it in the center you can pretty much charge whoever you want. even if i try to steer out of the way I can't outrun the unit. Against that type of VC army how many PD/DD do i need to do OK on my magic phase and not get blown away in my opponent's magic phase? right now i have 9/6 in my army with BT, 3 tzeentch heralds and 10 horrors. I dont think 9/6 is incredibly cheesy so thats why i did that..