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As people probably remember with the previous Chaos SM codex based armies; augmenting your CSM with daemon was generally (yes I said generally, people who nitpick this statement will be nuked) cost-effective and a good strategy. I've not had a chance to peruse the daemon codex so I will rely on the experience of others in answering, "does it still hold true that augmenting CSM with daemons (or possibly vice versa) is reasonably tactical and cost-effective sense?" I breathlessly await your replies.

p.s. I've been drinking

Not possible - outside of Apocolypse, you cannot mix units from the Daemons codex with CSM.

That sucks, guess they really took the buzzsaw to the CSM codex.

Arcoslippy wrote:That sucks, guess they really took the buzzsaw to the CSM codex.

yes, but in my opinion, the CSM codex as written now is superior to the old codex.

I would make some changes, such as possessed (what possessed them to make that rule?). but on the whole, I think it is a rock solid codex.

EDIT:btw even though they are less impressive than the old demons, summoned lesser demons are radtacular.

Sushicaddy wrote:

Arcoslippy wrote:That sucks, guess they really took the buzzsaw to the CSM codex.

yes, but in my opinion, the CSM codex as written now is superior to the old codex.

I would make some changes, such as possessed (what possessed them to make that rule?). but on the whole, I think it is a rock solid codex.

EDIT:btw even though they are less impressive than the old demons, summoned lesser demons are radtacular.

Are you being sarcastic?

whitedragon wrote:

Sushicaddy wrote:

Arcoslippy wrote:That sucks, guess they really took the buzzsaw to the CSM codex.

yes, but in my opinion, the CSM codex as written now is superior to the old codex.

I would make some changes, such as possessed (what possessed them to make that rule?). but on the whole, I think it is a rock solid codex.

EDIT:btw even though they are less impressive than the old demons, summoned lesser demons are radtacular.

Are you being sarcastic?

nope, not in the least.

I concur that summoned lesser daemons are kind of scary. Popping out and assaulting really hurts.

Imagine them as Assault Marines that don't have a bolt pistol, rather 2 ccw, or power armor, but are ANYWHERE you need them. Suddenly that isolated unit isn't isolated...

Now, you still need a decent delivery system, but it seems that being able to drop what, 10-20 St4 T4 A2 things right into melee is still good.

Lesser daemons really aren't bad. They provide the one thing most Elite armies need: bodies. They are also fearless, a troops choice, and if not durable, at least not fragile.

What they've done is go from being elite assault units to competent support units. Yes they are less powerful. Yes many armies will succeed without them. No, they are not useless.

I think I can predict Sushicaddy's 1850 list...

HQs 2 Lash prince
Troops - 2 min regular troops with CG mark and fist
Heavy - as many oblits as possible

add in some other Elite or something else kinda unit.... Double lash +X number oblits and min troops....

Sushicaddy wrote:

whitedragon wrote:

Sushicaddy wrote:

Arcoslippy wrote:That sucks, guess they really took the buzzsaw to the CSM codex.

yes, but in my opinion, the CSM codex as written now is superior to the old codex.

I would make some changes, such as possessed (what possessed them to make that rule?). but on the whole, I think it is a rock solid codex.

EDIT:btw even though they are less impressive than the old demons, summoned lesser demons are radtacular.

Are you being sarcastic?

nope, not in the least.

Either a joke or trollbating definenlty. The new CSM codex is boring and flavourless but still very powerful if built on the no brainers(2xLash, 6-9xObliterators and a few cult marines).

New lesser demons are cannon fodder unless you use them against IG and Tau in a heavy assult army and then they are still fodder alot of the times. No shooting, 5+ inv save(when most people get 4+ coversaves) and 2 attacks with a single CC weapon(where most people have bp and CC weapon) doesnt scare anyone. With the no-consolidate into new enemies they are even more doomed.

frgsinwntr wrote:I think I can predict Sushicaddy's 1850 list...

HQs 2 Lash prince
Troops - 2 min regular troops with CG mark and fist
Heavy - as many oblits as possible

add in some other Elite or something else kinda unit.... Double lash +X number oblits and min troops....

nope.

Regular CSM rock! I'd have 2 units of them in rhinos with mark of chaos glory aspiring champ, double plasma gun - 440
one unit of 10 plague marines in rhino w champ and double plasma guns = 310

2 units of 8 lesser demons -208


1 greater demon- 100

2 demon princes with mark of tzeench+ warptime+ wings. 350

5 terminators w/mark of khorne + 5combi plasmaguns - + power fist for champion - 215

1 unit of 3 obliterators -225

total 1848


total of 5 troop units, a heavy support that tank take out most tanks in a turn, three monstrous creatures, and termonators that can double tap their plasma guns into a squad the turn they arrive, then charge for 5 powerfists attacks from the champ, and 16 power weapon attacks from his fellows (if they survive the turn of shooting.

Just because CSM are not longer herohammer/demon transports does not mean that they are not a good solid codex, and really one of the best looking into 5th edition.

not troll-baiting, not sarcastic. I love the CSM codex, I think it's a rad, solid codex build on good principles.

and obviously, due to the composition of my list, and to get us back on track, I belive that deamons ARE a cost effective way to bolster the CSM ranks. this statement to the OP, and not the guys who are trying to get me into a flame war while simultaneously calling me a troll.

they are fearless, great statline, cheap, and can support any unit where ever they are.

they are not UBER, but are definitely worth the points, IMHO.

How can 13 pts for something with the same basic statline as a Marine for 15pts (considering his 2CCW) but without armoursave and any options or shooting be worth it? Granted they are fearless but they will have to take armoursaves instead and then they die.

If you face other good lists with the things you typed you will be eaten alive (if played by half decent opponents). For a competative CSM there is about one option, wich cult troops you will use, the rest is already set. If you find another type of CSM list doing well in a tournament setting feel free to show it.

I agree with Kallbrand. Given the choice between demons and CSM I'll take CSM. CSM have guns, armor, and don't go into reserve. If I need my CSM to go somewhere they get a possessed rhino.

demons don't need shooting.. they can use pavane to catch opposing units and pull them in hth. and with intervening units you can hide them anyway...

penek wrote:demons don't need shooting.. they can use pavane to catch opposing units and pull them in hth. and with intervening units you can hide them anyway...

The topic is "Daemons from the CSM Codex," where there is no pavane.

penek wrote:demons don't need shooting.. they can use pavane to catch opposing units and pull them in hth. and with intervening units you can hide them anyway...

What? Where do you find that in CSM? Thats what we were talking bout. But even in the demon codex there are no "small" demons with pavane.

In actuality,

What? Where do you find that in CSM? Thats what we were talking bout.

That is a rather short sighted approach.
While I agree that the subject seems to be about regular games of 40K, the topic is about using the 2 codexes together.

The one place you can use them together is in Apocalypse... and I think the right CSM/Daemon forces could really kick butt in Apoc.

While I'm not the biggest fan of Pavane, it definitely could be used in conjunction with generic Daemons in Apoc.

Just imagine this for a moment.

10,000 points per side...
One side is playing (whatever) and the other is playing an ALL Chaos, ALL Nurgle marked list with CSM & Daemons, and the Daemon half of the army has Epidemius.
Look at Epid's special rules, then apply them to Deathguard.


Hooooo Hah!

Anyway, the pont is that yes, they CAN be used together (albeit under limited circumstances) and that they can work VERY NICELY together.

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:In actuality,

What? Where do you find that in CSM? Thats what we were talking bout.

That is a rather short sighted approach.
While I agree that the subject seems to be about regular games of 40K, the topic is about using the 2 codexes together.

The one place you can use them together is in Apocalypse... and I think the right CSM/Daemon forces could really kick butt in Apoc.

While I'm not the biggest fan of Pavane, it definitely could be used in conjunction with generic Daemons in Apoc.

Just imagine this for a moment.

10,000 points per side...
One side is playing (whatever) and the other is playing an ALL Chaos, ALL Nurgle marked list with CSM & Daemons, and the Daemon half of the army has Epidemius.
Look at Epid's special rules, then apply them to Deathguard.


Hooooo Hah!

Anyway, the pont is that yes, they CAN be used together (albeit under limited circumstances) and that they can work VERY NICELY together.

Eric

Yes, yes - you can do ANYTHING YOU WANT IN THE LAND OF MAKE-BELI---er, I mean Apocalypse.

Or, perhaps dare I say it...the Adepticon Team Tournament?

4 sets of 1000 points. Two are chaos space marines...and two are chaos demons...

Would definately allow for mutually fielded combinations.

FlatlanderBoss2.0 wrote:Or, perhaps dare I say it...the Adepticon Team Tournament?

4 sets of 1000 points. Two are chaos space marines...and two are chaos demons...

Would definately allow for mutually fielded combinations.

Hush, you.