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Just to get a general view on this topic as I don't want to make cheese armies but am not sure what number of PD/DD become ridiculous to play with/against. I do love magic phase but i want people to play against!

Also, what are the steps on playing against someone with like 15PD?

It all depends on what army you're playing. Sure, 15 Power dice is a lot, but you're sinking a lot of points into just a few models to get there.

Steps for playing against 15 Power Dice:

1) Play Dwarves

Manfred von Drakken wrote:It all depends on what army you're playing. Sure, 15 Power dice is a lot, but you're sinking a lot of points into just a few models to get there.

Steps for playing against 15 Power Dice:

1) Play Dwarves

Or 2) Play Sacred Host of Tepok Lizardmen.

I came up with a reasonably competitive list at 2000 pts that generated 10 DD and had 2 dispel scrolls. It would effectively neuter all but the most powerful magic phase for at least two turns, at which point both sides are normally in close combat or very close to being in it. The only way to get spells off against that many DD is to pour on the power dice, which increase the odds of miscasts and there's nothing like seeing a 300+ pt model rolling a 2 on a miscast table and being swallowed up by some pan-dimensional being. But, all you really need is a few highly mobile beat sticks to kill off the opponent's mages in the first turn or two before the effects of their magic can fully tip the scales in their direction. So pretty much, either have an "ok" magic defense with some mage hunters or have a powerful magic defense and hope your army still has enough points spent on troops that your army can overwhelm his.

Well scott you are aware of my O&G 2000 point list that can generate 9 dispell dice with two dispell scrolls and a +1 to all dispell rolls. very good magic defense and offense not to overpowered with some hard hitting hero choices and lot of models on the tables. i love WAAAAAGGGGGGGGHHHH magic

Anything over 7 PD is getting into high levels of magic. (Consider a level 4 and a lvl 2 generate 6 plus the 2 in the pool). Usually anything over 9 PD will start setting off alarms as that starts getting really excessive for balanced armies. OTOH people don't seem to get as worked up about tons of DD because if their opponent is low magic its wasted points.

nieto666 wrote:Well scott you are aware of my O&G 2000 point list that can generate 9 dispell dice with two dispell scrolls and a +1 to all dispell rolls. very good magic defense and offense not to overpowered with some hard hitting hero choices and lot of models on the tables. i love WAAAAAGGGGGGGGHHHH magic

Eh, the only real hitch that list would have to slow down mine would be those fanatics.. There's no way to run my mage hunters in without one or two or maybe all of them eating a fanatic. Not to mention, outside of their own magic and skink weapons, Lizardmen are predominately a melee style army so fanatics scare the poop out of any worthwhile player using that army..

My 2250 Mortal Tzeentch army had 14PD ...

Then again, it also only consisted of 3 units and 3 characters ... so I never got many complaints

Gabe wrote:My 2250 Mortal Tzeentch army had 14PD ...

Then again, it also only consisted of 3 units and 3 characters ... so I never got many complaints

that there will defiantely do the trick. also Scott i think your Skaven would fair much better against my O&G then your lizardmen i so do luvthe fanatics

ok well i have a 3000 point high elf army i am building and Arion pointed out that i had 16-20 PD depending on my rolls due to banners of sorcery etc. anyway, is that way too much for High elves in a 3000 point game, how much should i drop it to? i realize that its a lot of magic but its all in 4 characters which comprise of 1/3 of my points. so wont the enemy outnumber me so vastly that people wont have a problem with it? what would you say if you were faced by an army like that?

bleedge wrote:what would you say if you were faced by an army like that?

"Bring up the cannons!"

You're putting a lot of points - and faith - into magic. The upshot is that magic in that quantity can swing the battle in your favor. The downside is that it's fickle, more so than shooting. As Elves, you're going to be outnumbered anyway; putting 1/3 of your points into wizards is going to make it worse. Are you confident that your magic can make up for your other shortcomings?

Never?

The biggest issue with an army like that is that it becomes a bit rock/paper/scissors, and a bit of a dice rolling exercise. If you roll decently, and don’t have any bad miscasts, and your opponent doesn’t have sufficient magic defense to stop you, you probably will do very well. If your opponent has an army which is durable/resistant to magic (Tepok Lizards, Dwarves, certain O&G builds, etc), he just has to weather the storm and smash you when he gets there. If he has a relatively fragile/low magic defense army, you tear him to pieces unless you roll really badly, but you don’t have to actually use any skill to do so.

It’s much like an all-shooting/gunline army. Either you stop the enemy before he gets to you, or you don’t. He spends most of the game moving and taking off casualties. You spend most of the game sitting there (maybe moving your units a little) and rolling dice. It’s not the most fun game for either party. And it lacks most of the interesting maneuver and counter-maneuver that makes warhammer the interesting tactical experience it can be.

As for the original question, there’s no one right answer. Different players and different groups have different tolerance levels, and some lores are more deadly than others. 10 dice in a nasty lore like vampires is scarier than 12 or 14 dice in a relatively poor lore like the revised Life.

Mannahnin wrote:If he has a relatively fragile/low magic defense army, you tear him to pieces unless you roll really badly, but you don’t have to actually use any skill to do so.

I would charge that a magic-heavy army, like a shooty army, requires more than a modicum of skill to win with. You need to figure out mathematically the most efficient way to cast spells. You need to decide which spells to cast and on which units. And while certainly, much DD magic is point and click, you still need to prioritize which units need to be taken down, which spells are going to be most effective, how many dispel scrolls he has left and which spells are likely to use them, etc.

It takes less skill, but not none. What taking 12PD does is make the game monodimensional. If you blow it, it's all over.

Having said that, I do concede that once you master it, once you've played enough games such that you know exactly which threats are most dangerous and how to best neutralize them such that you never take a charge you don't want to take, then it's not going to take much for you to win. But there's still a learning curve. If you don't know what you're doing, bringing a 12PD army won't necessarily be an auto-win even against armies light on magic defense. If you've been playing for years, then yes, the learning curve will be relatively quick and you'll quickly become the monodimensional general with the army that takes "little" skill. But if you've been a Dwarf player your whole life, like me, bringing a HE army with 12 PD won't guarantee you wins. In fact, although I have good handle on target prioritization because I've run a gunline, and while I have a good handle on which spells are dispel priorities, I will probably need to play for weeks before becoming a competent general with 12 PD. It will take some time to cultivate the necessary skills, however limited, to win with a 12PD army.

Although a magic-heavy army requires significantly less skill than others do, I certainly wouldn't say that it requires none, even against an army with weak magic defense.

nieto666 wrote: also Scott i think your Skaven would fair much better against my O&G then your lizardmen i so do luvthe fanatics

Meh.. my Skaven are more kooky fun to me than anything. There's no better excuse to hide poor tactics and strategy on than half your army killing each other and themselves! That being said, they are definitely tough due to solid leadership from S.I.N. and the loss of a major advantage armies have in CC: not getting shot at. One thing I haven't found out though about Life is Cheap is does it cause panic tests against units shot in close combat?

Bigchris, we're basically in agreement.

It takes less skill, the skills it uses are not about tactical maneuvering (which is the most interesting, exciting, and visually-compelling part of Warhammer), and it makes for a more boring game, win or lose.

Themandude- in 7th, any unit in close-combat auto-passes psychology tests.

Oops.. I'm sure there's quite a few folks who've played me that would have like to have known that in the past..

nieto666 wrote:Well scott you are aware of my O&G 2000 point list that can generate 9 dispell dice with two dispell scrolls and a +1 to all dispell rolls. very good magic defense and offense not to overpowered with some hard hitting hero choices and lot of models on the tables. i love WAAAAAGGGGGGGGHHHH magic

I love casting Gork's Warpath with Irresistible Force. My opponents just sigh and succumb to their fate like a child forced to do homework.

mercutio531 wrote:
I love casting Gork's Warpath with Irresistible Force. My opponents just sigh and succumb to their fate like a child forced to do homework.

Equally fun is rolling a 13 with Plague for my Skaven. Nothing like forcing every model in a unit to take a toughness test or take a wound to thin out T:3 units. The only problem is if the spell goes bouncing somewhere you don't want it afterwards

Mannahnin wrote:Bigchris, we're basically in agreement.

It takes less skill, the skills it uses are not about tactical maneuvering (which is the most interesting, exciting, and visually-compelling part of Warhammer), and it makes for a more boring game, win or lose.

Touche, Mr. Moderator, touche.

Hey, I played my Wood Elves with a ton of magic/shooty damage for years, only cleaning up in HTH in the late turns. It’s only since the current book forced me to be a serious HTH army that I’ve been All About The Maneuvering. And my chaos stuff has been a lot of fun too, since it’s more ranks and requires even more technique, maneuvering to nail down the enemy since I can’t do any damage at all in the shooting phase.

Chaos can't shoot?

Wait a minute...they have a Hellcannon!

It's almost good enough to take out entire dwarf armies in cluster-f formation by itself.

Oh right, it isn't.

Chaos can't shoot.

Non-Tzeentch Chaos can't magic either.

*cough*

Mortal Chaos just got bent over too.

Why do people play chaos?

The neat Conan models? lol

Don't forget the marauder horsemen throwing axes!! They totally out-range every missile troop in the game!