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I can understand why people loaded up on powerfists in 4th edition in MEq armies, but is this considered as valuable in 5th by those of you have tried, or theory-hammered the new game? I am kind of new to the MEq scene, and while I like powerfists, they also seem pretty expensive for units that may or may not see close combat. I have been avoiding them except for in a few occasions.

Considering Power Fists with -1 Attack compared to Power Weapons still outperform the Power Weapon against MEQ's and are far better against anything tougher than that, I think the Power Fist is a no-brainer upgrade for any MEQ squad that is above 6 Marines in Size.

This is doubly true for Marine Dex's that have to use the "Combat Squads" rules, where Marine Squads only come in 5 or 10 Man Units.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Considering Power Fists with -1 Attack compared to Power Weapons still outperform the Power Weapon against MEQ's and are far better against anything tougher than that, I think the Power Fist is a no-brainer upgrade for any MEQ squad that is above 6 Marines in Size.

This is doubly true for Marine Dex's that have to use the "Combat Squads" rules, where Marine Squads only come in 5 or 10 Man Units.

I will still use a powerfist on my master, as ws 5 (possibly 6), with 4 attacks on the charge is just too great to give up. I can't count how many times, my master has gone head to head with my opponents HQ. Opponent HQ swings first with a power weapon, 5-6 attacks 2-3 hit, 1-2 wound, make 0-1 saves with my Iron halo. my 4 attacks hit 2-3 wound 2-3 opponent makes 0-1 inv save and dies from instant death.

happens all the time. Powerfists are still awesome.

It's the cost of the powerfists in the DAs and BAs that have me concerned. I was still looking at PFs in a DAs army, but now losing an attack as well....I'm still trying to work that out.

Then you add in things like warptime and veil of time...and all of a sudden you are taking 5 wounds every round.

Toss in force weapons for the brain blow out...and things don't look so good for the power fist master.

Wow, we agree Stelek! Powerfists on space marine characters is a no-no.

Unless that character is a chaplain.

whitedragon wrote:Wow, we agree Stelek! Powerfists on space marine characters is a no-no.

There was a rumor that ICs in retinues could hide and were not treated as seperate units in close combat. I think that would make powerfists and thunder hammers useful on a marine character, current SM dex and BT dex anyways. DA/BA and probably new SM will be SOL.

Also yes the powerfist is still more efficient at killing MEq, even with the price increase and less attack. However T3 kills favors the powerweapon now (didn't use to). That is more of an FYI, not enough reason to pick a powerweapon over a fist.

You should never ever have a PF on your hq and reduce his high I to 1. If you only get hit by 5x S4 pw attacks your opp is doing something seriously wrong. Also, IC are treated as a separate unit in assults still.

In squads it comes down to what your army needs and what you expect to face. But generally 55+ for 2s8 attacks sounds a bit steep imo.

This why you give all you sergants PF and give your HQs lightning claws or something.

Stelek wrote:Then you add in things like warptime and veil of time...and all of a sudden you are taking 5 wounds every round.

Toss in force weapons for the brain blow out...and things don't look so good for the power fist master.

yeah, cause you can use three psychic powers in the same turn....


oh wait.

Sushicaddy wrote:

Stelek wrote:Then you add in things like warptime and veil of time...and all of a sudden you are taking 5 wounds every round.

Toss in force weapons for the brain blow out...and things don't look so good for the power fist master.

yeah, cause you can use three psychic powers in the same turn....


oh wait.

Since those things are spread across several different Codex's then it should be safe to assume he meant the ANY of them were more usefull than a PF not that they could be combined.

Kroeger wrote:

Sushicaddy wrote:

Stelek wrote:Then you add in things like warptime and veil of time...and all of a sudden you are taking 5 wounds every round.

Toss in force weapons for the brain blow out...and things don't look so good for the power fist master.

yeah, cause you can use three psychic powers in the same turn....


oh wait.

Since those things are spread across several different Codex's then it should be safe to assume he meant the ANY of them were more usefull than a PF not that they could be combined.

reguardless, any one of those is not a definite autokill.

5 attacks Hitting on a 4+ (rerolling) wounding on a 4+ (rerolling) with my 4+ inv save will be on average 2 wounds, not enough to kill.

5 attacks Hitting on a 4+, wounding on a 4+ will be around 1-2 wounds, which has to get through my 4+ inv save before you can try to explode my head, which will most likely be on a ld 9 in the new codex.

but 4 attacks hitting on a 4+ wounding on a 2+, instant death will kill either of those characters trying to kill my master with their psychic powers.

I realize that putting a powerfist on a master is against the normal dogma. As one of my recent opponents said after I crushed his chaos lord. "Powerfist on a master? Who does that?".

But it works and it works very well.

Sushicaddy wrote:
reguardless, any one of those is not a definite autokill.

5 attacks Hitting on a 4+ (rerolling) wounding on a 4+ (rerolling) with my 4+ inv save will be on average 2 wounds, not enough to kill.

5 attacks Hitting on a 4+, wounding on a 4+ will be around 1-2 wounds, which has to get through my 4+ inv save before you can try to explode my head, which will most likely be on a ld 9 in the new codex.

but 4 attacks hitting on a 4+ wounding on a 2+, instant death will kill either of those characters trying to kill my master with their psychic powers.

I realize that putting a powerfist on a master is against the normal dogma. As one of my recent opponents said after I crushed his chaos lord. "Powerfist on a master? Who does that?".

But it works and it works very well.

I happen to agree with you for Masters. I always run mine with a MC Thunder Hammer. Pricey, but he gets the job done.

Its much more balanced, there is a reason to take power weapons now, which are admittedly good in the hands of a vet sgt or similar minor character.

You still need powerfists though but you dont really need them everywhere.

What will be interesting is whether vet sgts are mandatory in the new marine codex, if so adding a power weapon where you cannot afford a powerfist is a no brainer, though in the case of the Devastator vet sgt you might want a storm bolter instead.

If rumor about retinue is not true then only character I'd use a PF or Thammer is a 3 wound chaplain. Give him a jumppack, mantle, have him keep the crozious, outfit him with the other goodness if points permit. He is an expensive character but can get his points back. Gives you flexibility in going I5 or I1 and S8.

Doesn't work as well with Masters cause
1) can't get both 4+ inv and mantle with same number of attacks (only storm shield for 4+ but loss of attack/power weapon or combat shield but only 5+ inv).

2) much more expensive with extra costs for power weapon and shield.

3) No litanies of hate.

Of course when new SM dex is released this character is probably not possible.

yeah, cause you can use three psychic powers in the same turn....


oh wait.

Yeah veil and warptime were mentioned cause they do the same thing to the attacks of a librarian or socerrer, not that both could be taken. Also, stelek mentioned the force weapon cause Tzeentch sorcerers can use Warptime and Forceweapon in the same turn. Makes those 2 average wounds much more deadly.

Is it worth bringing the PF on the IC with out the Mantle?

Marine IC's have superior initiative that is wasted with a fist. Fists are for sergeants. IC's need power weapons (inc croxius) or especially lightning claws.

Considering that casualties are pulled from the back now and that the fists are usually the ones doing the killing anyways the loss of initiative isnt a crippling blow. It only helped to keep the char's killzone clear to prevent counter attacks in 4th.

What do you guys think about fists on a Khorne Berzerker champion in 5th? Worth it or better to go with a power weapon for hitting relatively hard with furious charge and hitting at initiative?

It certainly became stronger relative to the power fist combination, but still, Ws5 A4 S9 power fist is very, very nasty...the Beserker Champion is probably the best power fist wielder in the game, or at least on par with the Striking Scorpion Exarch.

fazz wrote:It certainly became stronger relative to the power fist combination, but still, Ws5 A4 S9 power fist is very, very nasty...the Beserker Champion is probably the best power fist wielder in the game, or at least on par with the Striking Scorpion Exarch.

I don´t think the SS Exarch is a good example of a PW wielder, for starters no autokill against most armies (S6 PF not S8)

M.

I have a powerfist chaplian I still use sometimes (with a jump pack) to pick on units he can instant death. The jump pack allows him to traverse the battlefield quickly and to attack units that his powerfist won't be too much of a penalty against. He also has the crozius arcanum so he can choose to make the PW attacks if he wants.

I think that the Khorne Terminator champ is better than the berzerker champ with 4 attacks, 5 on the charge, and the rest of the squad still hits at Ini with PW!

The Beserker has Ws5. Comparing a more expensive elites choice to a troops choice is also unfair.

Uhh if you have veil of time or warptime, you are going to do more than 2 wounds to regular troops.

Against IC's, you only need to slip one wound past their invulnerable.

Then you roll the force weapon, and they die.

Warptime + Force weapon in the same turn = allowed in 5E.

Absolutely correct Stelek. The Tzeentchian sorcerer will become a killing machine under 5th, with either warptime + winds of chaos against infantry, or warptime + force weapon against characters...very nasty.

5 Attack sorcerer with warp time against MEQ: 5*8/9*3/4 = 120/36 = 3 1/3; thats an extremely good result for a long character nowdays...in comparison:

Marine Command with twin-claws: 5*2/3*3/4 = 30/12 = 2 1/2 kills, so the chaos sorcerer is over 50% more effective, with the option to instant kill...yeah, I wonder what will become popular

True, but then again some IC's will laugh since a force weapon won't work on ones that are immune to instant death. Hence, mantles will be worth it. A chaplain with Crozius and Powerfist, mantle and a jumpack/ bike is the best load out for a marine character. Templar chaplains will be the best since with a vow, they get preferred enemy.

Stelek wrote:Uhh if you have veil of time or warptime, you are going to do more than 2 wounds to regular troops.

Against IC's, you only need to slip one wound past their invulnerable.

Then you roll the force weapon, and they die.

Warptime + Force weapon in the same turn = allowed in 5E.

I wonder if SMs will have things like the mantle without an armoury... with these rules it seems suddenly worth 35 points.

Yup. I never leave home with out it. First thing I build in Army builder for my templar army is a Chappy with fist, crozius, mantle, and jumppack.

Capt K

TommyStriker wrote:I wonder if SMs will have things like the mantle without an armoury... with these rules it seems suddenly worth 35 points.