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Curently with my new Tyranid army I can decide if i should play my winged hive tyrant as a CC beast or my shooty Hive Tyrant with tl devourers and his wings. Unnoficial list looks like this as of now....Take into considweration which of these Tyrants you may fear most with 5th edition in mind...Hq:
-Hive Tyrant
2-Twinlinked Devourers, Enhanced Senses, Toxic Sacs, Warpfield, Fleshhooks, Wings
=200 Pts
3x Warriors
Adrenal Glands (ws), leaping, Extended Carapace, Rending Claws, Scything Talons= 111

Troops:
-24 x Spine Gaunts = 120pts
-24 x Spine Gaunts = 120pts
-24 x Spine Gaunts = 120pts
-8 x Genestealers
Extended Carapace = 160pts
-8x Genestealers
Ex. Carapce = 160


Elite:
- Carnifex
Enhanced Senses, 2-Twin Linked Devourers, Flesh Hooks=114pts
- Carnifex
Enhanced Senses, 2-Twin Linked Devourers, Flesh Hooks=114pts
- Carnifex
Enhanced Senses, 2-Twin Linked Devourers, Flesh Hooks=114pts

Heavy Support:
-Carnifex
Enhanced Senses, Barbed Strangler, Venom Cannon = 138 pts
-Carnifex
Enhanced Senses, Barbed Strangler, Venom Cannon = 138 pts

-2x Zoanthropes
Synapse
Warp Blast
130 Pts

=1853pts

Winged tyrants dies very fast with the new true LOS rules.

We had this discussion at the GW near me and with Wings and such that cannot be all you can see of the model just like I cant shoot at the lash of a Daemon Prince...It has to be a part of the body that is on the base so itsjust like every other MC.

Yeah, head-arms-legs-torso is the rule. The problem isnt the wings on it but the fact that you can see trough almost all terrain and a single MC will absorb all hwy weapon fire. It will go high on the priority list and it dies in round 1, maximum round 2.

AS will a non winged hive tyrant, Im thinking the same problem with my NIghtbringer but hes a bit tougher, but taller and easier to see...

Walking lord can have a guard that will greatly improve their surivial, wich the flyrant cant. Personally think 2 guards are enough to keep him up but you can bring even more if you wish.

The Nightbringer is alot more badass then a t6 4w creature(and alot more expensive) but yeah, he also get that big red cross all over him and will absorb alot of fire. The walking lord with a guard is more durable then him tho.

Kallbrand wrote:Yeah, head-arms-legs-torso is the rule. The problem isnt the wings on it but the fact that you can see trough almost all terrain and a single MC will absorb all hwy weapon fire. It will go high on the priority list and it dies in round 1, maximum round 2.

That already happens now... but at least in 5th ed. you get a cover save against AP2 weaponry when they do blast you through terrain, I see mobility and terrain being better for them now than before when you actually had to hide them OUT of LOS to get them to combat.

Kallbrand wrote:Yeah, head-arms-legs-torso is the rule. The problem isnt the wings on it but the fact that you can see trough almost all terrain and a single MC will absorb all hwy weapon fire. It will go high on the priority list and it dies in round 1, maximum round 2.

That really depends on the type of terrain your table has and the fact that nearly all terrain gives a 4+ cover save means the Tyrant can still be fairly survivable, but I do think you are right that a Winged Tyrant is more vulnerable in v5.

At the very least sticking with a completely stripped down version (+1BS, +1S, x2 TL Devourers, wings) would still be worth it as the Tyrant is still an incredibly potent mobile shooting unit for that price.

I am now also starting to get concerned with the new rules around the corner.
My nid army is 5 MC and a load of genestealers. So I expect my flying HT will be the first to be downed but it also means he will take a load of firepower.
If he was there or not fire power would be concentrated at on of the MC or of course the stealers.

One flyrant is only 4w tho, if he wasn there pepole would have to go for the hivetyrant with a guard that can have up to 10 wounds in total.

The only time the flyrant will really shine is if you(like yak pointed out) play with alot of terrain that totally blocks LOS(hills or houses/walls that are totally covering and high). I have hardly ever seen more then 1 pice of that kind on a table but you know your own backyard better then me.

"offtopic" Genestealers biggest problem isnt the fire on the way in, since you can screen them but rather the problem of not beeing able to consolidate into fresh units leaving them open for extra rounds of rapid fire.

So concensuss seems its better to just take Hive Tyrantwith guards rather then Flyrant? Although with guards you allow a much larger area for someone to have LOS on that unit.

But the HT cannot be picked out and the guard can claim normal cover saves.

The winged tyrant is easier to pick out than the walking tyrant. The "unit" maybe not so much. but the Tyrant itself is a lot more survivable and harder to hit.

I think I am going to run both for a while and see.

kirsanth wrote:But the HT cannot be picked out and the guard can claim normal cover saves.

Though the gaurd are not MCs, the whole unit deploys as MCs.
So, wouldnt the guard then be without 4+ cover saves (be it terrain, or friendlies) ?

Accipiter wrote:

kirsanth wrote:But the HT cannot be picked out and the guard can claim normal cover saves.

Though the gaurd are not MCs, the whole unit deploys as MCs.
So, wouldnt the guard then be without 4+ cover saves (be it terrain, or friendlies) ?

I think you answered yourself. They are not MC's so they would get them. Deploying with a MC doesnt change their status.

'Nid Codex wrote:The Tyrant guard form a retinue with the Hive Tyrant (the unit still deploys as a monstrous creature).

I am under the impression that the tyrant and guard are treated as MCs even though the guard dont get MC goodies.
And that MCs (in general) dont get the 4+ cover save from having friendlies between them and opponants fire unless the friendlies are physically large models.

If the Tyrant gaurd will be screened, then by what?
Warriors?
Gaunts standing on one hind leg flapping their arms in the air?


The tyrant guard will be shot at if there are no alternative priority targets for the opponants.
Not so different from 4th Ed

Currently I run both in my Nids list, I have a CC Flyrant for my quick get into combat and I also have my shooty twin linked Devo walkrant with 2 guard, plus 2 sniper fex's. Sounds like I run a similar list, heavy geanstealer's with MC's, but again, with the Tyrants I run both and have had success, I use them in a 1500 list.

Freaka

Accipiter wrote:

'Nid Codex wrote:The Tyrant guard form a retinue with the Hive Tyrant (the unit still deploys as a monstrous creature).

I am under the impression that the tyrant and guard are treated as MCs even though the guard dont get MC goodies.
And that MCs (in general) dont get the 4+ cover save from having friendlies between them and opponants fire unless the friendlies are physically large models.

If the Tyrant gaurd will be screened, then by what?
Warriors?
Gaunts standing on one hind leg flapping their arms in the air?


The tyrant guard will be shot at if there are no alternative priority targets for the opponants.
Not so different from 4th Ed

Why would they be treated as MC's when they arent. I dont understand what your basing this assumpton on. Because the squad is deployed as a MC? It doesnt say anywhere that it counts as a MC for anything but that deployment and my guess is the reason for that rule is because there is a MC being deployed with them, not that they are treated as one.

And yes they can be screened by gaunts. A gaunt is half as tall as the current hunched over tyrant guard model.

Things are going to get shot at more in 5th. there isnt really a way to avoid that. if you want your tyrants to dont get shot so much take them with tyrant guard. since all shooting is based on true line of sight, if the tryrant guard are obscured by interveneing models or terrain then they will benifit from the 4+ cover save. the tyrant will also benifit since the majority of the unit is in cover, even if there is only 1 tyrant guard left.