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Conversely, if EVERYONE not happy with product about to ship but still no release of production photos asked for a refund, and bluntly explained why, perhaps Mantic would watch the language please ! reds8n themselves and realize they are losing support which not only hurts now, but will continue to hurt in the future.

Earth Dragon wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

Sining wrote:
So you asked for a refund on a pledge whose miniatures you haven't really seen because you're not certain about the quality? And yet you backed a kickstarter anyway?

It's more to do with expecting it to have been shown already, combined with knowledge of Mantics habit of not releasing pics when there's problems. I'll be dropping my MA pledge if I don't see deadzone production models before the end of the MA KS too.

And why is he entitled to get his money back and the rest of us, who are all in the same situation, should just take the loss?

Don't back the kickstarter if you don't understand the risk. That's why you are getting what you are getting at the price you are getting it at. Don't back future projects from this company or others if you don't trust them. But don't act like your money is the best of the 1.2 mil to where you should be entitled to get it back if you don't like the results well after the campaign. Next time wait for retail.

Who said anything about entitled? He said he asked - it's up to Mantic to decide if they want to refund it for him. He also said he'd patiently wait and hope to be pleasantly surprised if they said they wouldn't.

 CptJake wrote:
Conversely, if EVERYONE not happy with product about to ship but still no release of production photos asked for a refund, and bluntly explained why, perhaps Mantic would careful with the language please. Reds8n themselves and realize they are losing support which not only hurts now, but will continue to hurt in the future.

Fair enough. But I do think they are getting the message:

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1744629938/mars-attacks-the-miniatures-game/#chart-daily

 Yonan wrote:

Sining wrote:
So you asked for a refund on a pledge whose miniatures you haven't really seen because you're not certain about the quality? And yet you backed a kickstarter anyway?

It's more to do with expecting it to have been shown already, combined with knowledge of Mantics habit of not releasing pics when there's problems. I'll be dropping my MA pledge if I don't see deadzone production models before the end of the MA KS too.

Expecting what to be shown? Wasn't there just a huge image dump previously for the first 4 factions? Granted Asterians and FF aren't shown yet but they're wave2 and no one has seen anything for them. Ergo, you still don't know anything new about them that you didn't know during the KS.

Sining wrote:
Expecting what to be shown? Wasn't there just a huge image dump previously for the first 4 factions? Granted Asterians and FF aren't shown yet but they're wave2 and no one has seen anything for them. Ergo, you still don't know anything new about them that you didn't know during the KS.

Have you been following the thread? Production models are what is wanted to be shown. What we know now that we didn't know during the DZ KS is that Kings of War had big problems with some models - Basilean Men at Arms. These weren't known before they arrived because Mantic didn't show us production models of them. Then the same thing happened again with the metal dreadball minis, where they were shipped out before asking anyone if that was ok. So yes, we really do want to see production models.

I don't expect a refund (I actually expect it all to be fine), but I really want Mantic to lift their game, and I can see why others might want a refund. However I am going to cancel my MA KS pledge if I don't see that Mantic has lifted their game by showing us some good DZ production models.

I can't disagree that the MAA at pretty much crap but I don't recall Mantic showing any actual painted minis for them before shipment. However, they have shown actual painted minis before during the dreadball KS and those translated pretty well into the actual minis I have. Even if they made them metal, I'm okay with that because I prefer metal. Even if they're mixed because I honestly don't have an issue with the scaling on my figures

Sining wrote:
I can't disagree that the MAA at pretty much crap but I don't recall Mantic showing any actual painted minis for them before shipment. However, they have shown actual painted minis before during the dreadball KS and those translated pretty well into the actual minis I have. Even if they made them metal, I'm okay with that because I prefer metal. Even if they're mixed because I honestly don't have an issue with the scaling on my figures

You're referring to painted masters during the KS I imagine (I didn't back Dreadball), not production models. The thing with production models is they can have flaws due to casting that the masters don't. That's where the problems with Men at Arms and Dreadball metals came to light, not to mention the bad mould lines with some restic products of mantic.

I'm glad you like metal. Many others don't, and certainly don't like getting mixed materials - especially when they paid for something else. Please have some empathy for others viewpoints.

The production models for Deadzone will all be restic, there are no known issues with the current restic miniatures, the same "mix" is being used as dreadball season 3.

No idea why they didn't take pics, but the minis are currently on a slow boat somewhere in the indian ocean, so the odds of getting pics of them before the MA KS is over are slim.

Hard plastic is the stuff that risks turning out badly moreso than restic, luckily after one retooling for the battlezone sprues and three retoolings for the connector sprues they've managed to get that sorted and you can see production sprues being assembled in the terrain video.

I own a fethload of MAA but am still fairly confident that the DZ minis will be just fine simply because they're restic which is less prone to major screwups. Will have some review pics up on Dec 1st.

Well, luckily they can get a refund for the metals then.

 scarletsquig wrote:
The production models for Deadzone will all be restic, there are no known issues with the current restic miniatures, the same "mix" is being used as dreadball season 3.

Yeah I'm pretty confident with them based on that too, but I can see why others aren't and dislike dogpiling on them. Also their statements about holding back the plastics, retooling, and communicating status before shipping was great.

so the odds of getting pics of them before the MA KS is over are slim.

That is unfortunate though, Mars Attacks might have been fun ; p

Sining wrote:
Well, luckily they can get a refund for the metals then.

They have to pay return shipping for them still (supposedly) which is expensive as you might imagine, not to mention a hassle.

While I won't be asking for a refund, I did cancel the extras I had ordered from the survey. All the crap with the KoW and Dreadball S3 debacles made me reconsider all the extras I wanted from the survey so I never paid for the items by the deadline. Emailed Mantic about it after the whole "we totally never meant to imply Enforcers would be hard plastic, honest!" thing last week and dropped down to the basic Strike Zone I had pledged for. They responded the next day and seemed pretty cool about it and didn't give me any problems or attitude, so I think their PR is pretty good, it's just their production that I'm leery about.

I had originally planned to get the 2 Enforcers Boosters and 4 of the Peacekeeper units, but my faith in Mantic has dropped considerably since June. I'd still like to get that stuff, and still might for wave 2 or 3, but there's no way I'm giving Mantic another hundred bucks before I have the original stuff in hand. Still mostly happy with the Deadzone rules and models we've seen, just not with how they've been handling it. They really need to get their act sorted out

For those of you just tuning inm. I backed Deadzone after backing Kings of War but before realizing how poorly Mantic operates and what a shoddy product they produce. My decisions to back the kickstarters were based upon the good quality undead plastics I had purchased from them and a willingness to support an up and coming company. What I didn't realize at the time is that they're long on ideas and short on execution. Go back through this thread and you'll see my concerns but they center upon poor communication due to an unwillingness to display a shoddy product before they pawn it off on the unwitting consumer. Instead, they'll continue to show resin masters which of course don't suffer from manufacturer defects. The patterns of the KoW kickstarter seem to be continuing here regardless of the platitudes we were fed last last week and I find myself continuing to feel negative regarding this whole thing except for the scenery which actually looks great.

Of course my decision to ask for a refund is selfish, every monetary decision should be. If they decline my request, I'll honor my end of things and simply take my custom elsewhere in the future (which I plan to do anyway, at least until they rediscover plastic).

Edit: never mind there is no point trying to speak reason in this thread with all the anti Mantic going on.

overtyrant wrote:
Edit: never mind there is no point trying to speak reason in this thread with all the anti Mantic going on.

I dunno, a lot of people are pretty rightfully upset at the direction Mantic has been going. Especially people that were fans and supporters but feel burned. I see it less as anti-mantic and more as utter disapointment based on Mantics current trends and what they promised vs what we're now seeing as final product . Asking for a KS refund is a bit much, I agree, that's kind of the gamble you sign on for with a KS, but at the same time Mantic has been making some large promises and chain running kickstarters, and the reaction to the rushed product is starting to catch up to them. It's a reaction to actual actions taken by Mantic and using that new information to projected into the near future what seems to be going on.

I'm still very hopeful for Deadzone. I plan to play the heck out of it when my KS arrives, and I plan to force it on any and all of my friend's that I can. But at the same time I'm seeing the final product from KoW and dreadball and the wishy-washyness of the deadzone updates and it makes me wary. Before i was content to simply blindingly trust that Mantic will deliver as promised, now there is doubt. Nothing wrong with a little caution at this point.

 scarletsquig wrote:
The production models for Deadzone will all be restic, there are no known issues with the current restic miniatures, the same "mix" is being used as dreadball season 3.

No idea why they didn't take pics, but the minis are currently on a slow boat somewhere in the indian ocean, so the odds of getting pics of them before the MA KS is over are slim.

They probably need to learn how to operate a camera in that case. Unfortunately a number of their backers and supports are losing trust and faith in them. While I want to like Mantic, I certainly don't trust them anymore. I'll need to go through this box of DB crap I got last week sometime. Maybe on the weekend. And yes, there's a few metal figures in there. In fact, one of the bags split open, spreading them all over the interior of the box...

overtyrant wrote:
Edit: never mind there is no point trying to speak reason in this thread with all the anti Mantic going on.

Well, to surprise you, even I can admit that this looks good:

Mantic wouldn't have so much problems, if design (by McVey), presentation, and end product were always on this level, esp. when combined with fitting communication and reliability.

To offer a slightly different perspective:

My experience of miniatures can be broadly attributed to a lot of GW stuff from the mid-90s to mid 2000s, followed by independent local manufacturers (e.g. Hasslefree, Heresy) and then Kickstarters where the value for the money was just far too good to ignore.

Miniatures to me, have therefore been:
- Slightly shonky expensive metal casts for GW, improving to really good ones, and increasingly good rank and file plastic kits. Expense and lowered interest eventually led to me dropping out.
- Fairly expensive individual metal models from the locals, which were a lot of fun to paint, but expense stopped me indulging too far.
- A few resin Studio McVey pieces I got cheap from the demise of Maelstrom, which were lovely but an utter pain to put together and I'm constantly worrying about breaking.

And then the Kickstarter stuff - Bones, Sedition Wars, Relic Knights and Mantic's stuff. ALL of these have been problematic. All of them. They are clearly being done on a punishing schedule where profit margins are razor thin, and also experimenting with new plastics and production methods all the time, and the results are never superb.

But I don't think that Mantic has done any worse than what I've seen from other Kickstarters, and am probably the happiest with them out of everything I've received so far. Maybe I'm comparing some of the shonky sculpts with those from the 90s, maybe I'm still delighted over incredibly cheap miniatures made from a strong plastic, maybe I'm just easy to please. But I'm just not seeing what standard Mantic is being held against here, where they're failing so badly.

It seems more like a lack of consistency with Mantic being the problem, like a box of chocolates, or a fast mentally challenged guy.

Bioptic wrote:


But I don't think that Mantic has done any worse than what I've seen from other Kickstarters, and am probably the happiest with them out of everything I've received so far. Maybe I'm comparing some of the shonky sculpts with those from the 90s, maybe I'm still delighted over incredibly cheap miniatures made from a strong plastic, maybe I'm just easy to please. But I'm just not seeing what standard Mantic is being held against here, where they're failing so badly.

Perhaps it is because we, as customers/potential customers have already bought product we consider inferior in some cases, and Mantic is currently not showing production figures for a game that starts shipping soon (that several of us have paid quite a bit into) and Mantic is currently asking us to trust them and buy into yet another game (Mars Attacks). All this in a market place booming with choices and competition.

 CptJake wrote:

Bioptic wrote:


But I don't think that Mantic has done any worse than what I've seen from other Kickstarters, and am probably the happiest with them out of everything I've received so far. Maybe I'm comparing some of the shonky sculpts with those from the 90s, maybe I'm still delighted over incredibly cheap miniatures made from a strong plastic, maybe I'm just easy to please. But I'm just not seeing what standard Mantic is being held against here, where they're failing so badly.

Perhaps it is because we, as customers/potential customers have already bought product we consider inferior in some cases, and Mantic is currently not showing production figures for a game that starts shipping soon (that several of us have paid quite a bit into) and Mantic is currently asking us to trust them and buy into yet another game (Mars Attacks). All this in a market place booming with choices and competition.

I come at this from the perspective on a retail customer. I have never, and will never, back any kickstarter from anyone, I prefer to hand over money to my local shop to keep them going, but thats purely a personal thing. I have to say I have nothing but praise for mantic, I bought Dreadball, which I really like, I've bought some undead minis which again are very good indeed, and I bought the boardgame , dwarfs kings hold, which I also thought was good.

I must say I'm quite shocked when I read this thread at the negativity after such an experience,however coming from the perspective of the other side of table as a business owner myself, knowing the aggravation headache and stress that can come with putting a product to market I'm not sure kickstarter is really suitable medium for the projects if people do not really understand that backing an in dev project is a gamble that you may not be happy with the outcome. Not just mantic, but I think kickstarter in general should make this much clearer, when I expand I either use capital I have or finance from the bank, the bank will asses the risk before offering me the money obviously, and in the case of kickstarter it is the backers who are in essence 'the bank' . I'm not sure due diligence is entirely possible before money changes hands myself with the limited information one gets from a kickstarter page.

I'm looking forward to deadzone, I was kind of hoping my shop will have them for christmas but that looks unlikely, but I do like the minis and I'm hoping the ruleset matches, but I think its a shame so many have had negative experiences with the mantic stuff, when from the retail side I genuinely cannot fault them. Perhaps they should look to different ways of funding in the future, the loss of goodwill is probably far more costly than the interest on finance.

Not everyone has a local shop. They are few and far between in rural Georgia.

As for the Deadzone rules, you can try the beta version out here: http://www.manticblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/deadzone-beta-for-chris-palmer.pdf

 CptJake wrote:
Not everyone has a local shop. They are few and far between in rural Georgia.

As for the Deadzone rules, you can try the beta version out here: http://www.manticblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/deadzone-beta-for-chris-palmer.pdf

Georgia the country or Georgia the U.S. state?

Bioptic wrote:
To offer a slightly different perspective:

My experience of miniatures can be broadly attributed to a lot of GW stuff from the mid-90s to mid 2000s, followed by independent local manufacturers (e.g. Hasslefree, Heresy) and then Kickstarters where the value for the money was just far too good to ignore.

Miniatures to me, have therefore been:
- Slightly shonky expensive metal casts for GW, improving to really good ones, and increasingly good rank and file plastic kits. Expense and lowered interest eventually led to me dropping out.
- Fairly expensive individual metal models from the locals, which were a lot of fun to paint, but expense stopped me indulging too far.
- A few resin Studio McVey pieces I got cheap from the demise of Maelstrom, which were lovely but an utter pain to put together and I'm constantly worrying about breaking.

And then the Kickstarter stuff - Bones, Sedition Wars, Relic Knights and Mantic's stuff. ALL of these have been problematic. All of them. They are clearly being done on a punishing schedule where profit margins are razor thin, and also experimenting with new plastics and production methods all the time, and the results are never superb.

But I don't think that Mantic has done any worse than what I've seen from other Kickstarters, and am probably the happiest with them out of everything I've received so far. Maybe I'm comparing some of the shonky sculpts with those from the 90s, maybe I'm still delighted over incredibly cheap miniatures made from a strong plastic, maybe I'm just easy to please. But I'm just not seeing what standard Mantic is being held against here, where they're failing so badly.

There are issues and then there are real issues. Like you, I've been in the wargaming hobby since the mid-90s but as technology and techniques have changed so have my expectations as far as quality is concerned. My first exposure to Mantic was a small purchase of their Undead plastic range when I decided to build a fantasy undead army and I was impressed; so much so that I bought into the kickstarter when they launched KoW. Let's just say that apparently their early plastics seem to be the exception to the quality rule at Mantic HQ now that they've discovered the wonderful world of churn and burn kickstarter projects. They've changed from a company that seemed focused on providing a good product for a good value to one that intends to move from one kickstarter to the next. In this new model, they have to meet deadlines or it throws off the scheduling of the next kickstarter and we just can't have that.

Other than the two Mantic kickstarters, I've backed one other miniature kickstarter, Dreamforge Games. Though marred by delays, the founder and one man operator, Mark, has been with backers every step of the way throughout the process and his primary goal from day one has been delivering a quality product. He's done that in spades and in plastic, not restic. In my opinion Dreamforge should be the poster child for how a miniature kickstarter is run. Pick up a box of eisenkern infantry or a leviathan and prepare to be impressed (the darn thing uses screws to be assembled for goodness sake!).

Here is why people are upset:

From their own reports, Mantic people went over, visited 'wherever' and hot a boxed set production deadzone, sealed. SUPPOSEDLY while there they inspected the production contents and have seen them.

They then took a picture of this sealed box on the plane-ride back to mantic HQ.

They have a sealed box of what backers are going to get in the mail. People want UNBOXING photos. Instead, they give everyone a photo montage of professional painted and photo cleaned up box-art production masters.

So has mantic not opened the box they have? did they open it and the models were not good or look poor in comparison to the masters? Mantic has to have the ability to take professional photos in HQ, the camera and lightbox must be within physical proximity to the box they have. Why can they not simply open the box, and take photos, and even take unpainted photos next to their master painted counterpart?

The track record has been, when they hide models from backers and the first time we see them is when they arrive in backers hands, it is because the models are bad in either casting or sculpting or have serious production flaws. So people are scared while the painted masters are cool, those enforcers will have mold lines across their face, sprue tares which remove their whole fist and other issues.

Mantic could easily just show the product they physically have, do a short unboxing review of their own product, show the actual models as they turned out and make everyone happy. It is 20 minutes of work, for so much reward. 20 minutes of work could save them dozens of MA backers and thousands of dollars.

This is why this is mindboggling. Don't make excuses for it as it makes you unreasonable. There is no rational excuse why they can't take pictures of models they physically have. When the company is acting grossly unreasonable, they can expect their backers to act the same.

Now be fair, they've also failed to show stuff like the twilight kin cavalry which was excellent

(stupid but there you go)

Kroot, are you saying you're contemplating buying up an enforcer army if the produced models look that good?

I think it was in the 116 update that Mantic wrote in the comment section; when the Finance Manager came back from China he brought the box but the miniatures "weren't ready yet." We were supposed to get an update the following week but apparently everyone forgot they weren't going to be in the office that week as they all ran off to Germany or parts unknown where the internet apparently doesn't exist. Then last week we get an update with the scenery (which was apparently all that was in the box).

Either in the comments section or the 117 update they said that production miniatures were being flown over but they also said that the majority of production was already on a boat.

Now think on that. Just a couple of weeks earlier we were told that the miniatures weren't ready yet; so much so that all the Finance Manager could bring back was a box with some scenery. I have some experience with international shipping and I've never heard of something being produced in volume, packaged, through customs, loaded on a ship and en route so quickly before. Either something's rotten in the state of Denmark or they need to put their logistics person in charge of the entire company.

Yeah, the folks at Mantic should probably take a communications class or hire someone with a background in corporate communications to manage the kickstarter updates so that we don't get spotty information, misinformation and just plain bad information.

If a substantial number of your backers for Mars Attacks want to see unboxing photos of deadzone, then you figure out how to have your factory overnight a box to HQ and take photos. You make it happen.

I can't believe a production sample was not in the hands of mantic the second it came out of the mold.

Many of us can't suspend disbelief on this whole 'no time to photo the greens before the go to china' and 'no time to take photos of the production casts before they hit retail.' It may be 'legitimate' but it doesn't make sense and confuses people. And on a business model which relies on faith and consistent track records, that is not a good thing.

James should probably pay this thread another visit. His last visit produced a calm that lasted for at LEAST a whole page.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mantic has the production models, it's just a matter of showing them. Where does the misinformation that they don't have any come from? Wishful thinking or something?

Deadzone Update 117 wrote:
we are flying in some of the production pieces and will get images out as soon as we receive them

 lagoon83 wrote:
As soon as we've got the production miniatures in-house, we'll post a picture of them. As far as I'm aware they're not here yet. Unless I'm wrong! Which I might well be. I'll check it in the morning, most people have gone home now.

To be fair, both of these were posted last week. So instead of a couple pages saying "Mantic is dumb I want my moneyz back!!" has anyone actually, y'know, emailed James or anyone, and asked about it?

I do feel bad for the people who have supported Mantic and haven't gotten what they expected to get. It definitely sucks, and I wish Mantic was supplying pictures of ready-to-go models. If the mounted elves had ready to go pictures, people would have bought them by the dozens. A lot have said they were great, but it was a blind product. I'm actually more bummed by the sisters than the MaAs at this point-I can fix the MaAs (again, I shouldn't have to, but it is doable). The sisters...I'll get to them last. The heads just don't seem quite right on the bodies. That said, I've had no issues with ANY Dreadball stuff, and I'm salivating waiting for DZ stuff. I only pledged a dollar for MA, so I can get Blaine and the Knight for my Basilean army. I went in on Loka at the last minute, deciding I wanted a cool fantasy chess set. Didn't get any extras for that game at all, just the basics. We'll see how it all turns out. I love Mantic's CS team (Stew and Tim do an awesome job), their rules are top notch, and their ogres blow GW's out of the water. I'm not a fan of their aversion to cameras. All their decisions involving cameras at this point hurts them, but all decisions not involving cameras have been great.