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Alright, I'm trying to turn my fluffy Khorne list into a competitive Daemon list for 5th edition.


HQ:

Herald of Khorne in Chariot w/Icon 110
Herald of Khorne in Chariot w/Icon 110
Herald of Khorne in Chariot w/Icon 110
Herald of Khorne in Chariot w/Icon 110

Elites:
4 Bloodcrushers 160
4 Bloodcrushers 160
4 Bloodcrushers 160

Troops:

5 Pink Horrors w/Bolt of Tzeentch, Icon 110
5 Pink Horrors w/Bolt of Tzeentch 95
5 Pink Horrors w/Bolt of Tzeentch 95
5 Pink Horrors w/Bolt of Tzeentch 95
5 Pink Horrors w/Bolt of Tzeentch 95
5 Pink Horrors w/Bolt of Tzeentch, Changling 100

Fast Attack:
None

Heavy Support:
Soul Grinder w/Phlegm 160
Soul Grinder w/Phlegm 160
Soul Grinder w/Phlegm 160

The ordinary DMA seperation for hard targets will be:

Soul Grinders, Crushers and 2 Heralds in the first wave,
Horrors and 2 Heralds in the second wave

So, what do y'all think?

Looks solid, any chance for unholy might on the heralds?

Why phlegm on the soulgrinders? With the new scatter rules, they're even less likely to hit in 5th ed, and I'm not sure that infantry are going to be the bane of your list...

Heralds: I'm not convinced it's worth it. Mostly they get shot down for their icons, and if they survive they are already s6 on the round they charge in. I could probably bring myself to take it instead of the icons, but in addition its just too many upgrades for my blood.

Soul Grinder:I think the Phlegm will pay for itself decently. Despite the tough scatter rules, it's still only going an average of 4 inches, and without partials many more models will be affected. Further, the Mawcannon is located right at the top of the Grinder, and he is ridiculously tall. He's going to be able to see over cover as detailed in the 5th edition rules, a decent amount of the time. Also I like him to be able to do something if he scatters away from the enemy, or other stuff goes well and he suddenly needs to fire on a target further away from him. Lastly it encourages enemies who get a Weapon Destroyed result to stay away from his CCW, which he's going to need in CC.

I guess, but I'm looking at the cost of what you're not taking as well. I don't have the codex in front of me, unfortunately, so I don't know for sure the Strength/AP of the Bolt of Tzeentch, but I think it's 8...

With 5th ed rules for vehicle pen, you're relying on a total of 6 S8 shots to handle any AV14 targets, which I expect to see more of on the battlefield as they get more resilient in general.

Yeah, phlegm is nice. Big templates are cool in general. But, that average 4" scatter is larger than the radius of the template, and looking at everything else you have, I don't think that it's more enemy troops that your list will struggle against. Giving up the Tongue attack to get the Phlegm attack seems to reinforce an area that your list already looks strong against, and does nothing to help an aspect of the game that your list looks weak against.

You make a good point. I was thinking of my current list when I decided on the Grinder's weapon, but with the Pink Horrors we've got decent anti-horde shooting, and it's not like he loses the vomit attack. Maybe I should try the tongue upgrade instead of phlegm. Tough decision.

I'm confused, 6 S8 shots will handle any AV14 targets?

How's that work?

Stelek wrote:I'm confused, 6 S8 shots will handle any AV14 targets?

How's that work?

I think that's what he meant. He meant that 6 S8 shots wouldn't handle any AV14 shots.

If you are unsure of the Khorne Heralds I would recommend taking a look at the tzeentch herald. For 110 pts you get 3 str 5 ap3, 1 str8 ap1, shootable at different targets at bs4, with a 4+ ward save and 5 wounds. That gives you the benefit of having your entire second wave be shooting, if that's the way you want to split it up.

Also with the list you have and your suggested DMA I don't think you need that many icons. The only real purpose for icons is slow units, or 2nd+ round soul grinder placement (because he's so huge).

125 points is a lot for Icons. Drop the bolt off of a horror squad (preferrably the changeling squad because then your opponent has to decide between taking out a bolt or taking out the changeling) and the two net you 8 fleshhounds. If anything I would probably keep 2 in your 2nd wave for when you roll a 1 or 2 and call it good.

Croak: Once again, good point. My Icons are leftovers from my Khorne list, where the Round 2 drop was scads of infantry that needed to be absolutely right in the face of the enemy, frequently hidden behind combat. Now that I've got shooters for my infantry they can land further away. In such a case I probably don't need all the icons, as you say. I think I'll drop them, get myself some more models and less upgrades.

Stelek, the s8 shots are AP 1, which renders them better than ordinary s8 shots at damaging AV 14 vehicles. It's still scanty, but I'm basing the idea that I can get by with minimal Anti AV-14 weaponry on the current play environment.

Landraiders: I'll disregard them and fight the remainder of the army. If possible I'll have a Soul Grinder pounce on them, but I imagine they'll be just sitting back and shooting lascannons and heavy bolters at me. As long as there aren't too many of them, and they don't have all the point units hidden in them (like my LR blitz list) it shouldn't be a big deal.

Monoliths: Defensive Necrons are not strong enough in 5th for me to worry too much. I can probably phase them by going after their infantry and shooting down their jetbikes. Liths got hugely nerfed by the combat res changes.

Ork battlewagons: These are not nearly so tough in the side and rear, so I'll just deep strike in such a way as to get those shots if they come out to dance. If they hang on the board edge behind the infantry I'll disregard them. Against Orks, in truth, it's not the tanks that worry me.

Russes: Now these are worrisome. They are cheap enough to triple down on, and have enough firepower to make ignoring them difficult. I'm leaving that as a hole in my list's enemy matrix, as battles vs. triple Russ stand and shoot IG are uncommon. In the event of this my strategy for the Russes would be to try and get Soul Grinders in near them, unless the IG have properly castled. If they have I'll play for objectives in the objective mission, try and hold my own objective in the ctf style mission and try and win via them having too many squads in the KP mission. If nothing else, none of my units should have trouble with anything else in an IG list.


That was my thinking behind the limited anti-tank.

It is not harder to hit with ordnance weapons in 5th, it is easier. You still roll a scatter dice that can hit and you also subtract BS from scatter.

With the rear armor rules in hth, russes shouldn't be much of an issue, as long as you can make it to the buggers. If land raiders become more of an issue screamers are a good bet against them since you aren't using your fa slots.

LR can cost you the game if you aren't careful.

AP1 is still a glancing hit on a LR from Bolt, same as any other AV14 vehicle that isn't open-topped.

i.e. it's no guarantee of anything. Having so much AT tied to your anti-horde shooty units when you don't have a whole lot of 'oomph' in your list does make me wonder why you are taking khorne heralds w/soulgrinders. Are you intending to CC the grinders?

Looks solid enough, presonally love the 5 horror w bolt units. Crushers are slow but resilient and packs a real punch. Personal opinions might vary between the GD/Heralds and Soulgrinder/DPs, but most are good and yours looks solid. Let us know how this works out when you try it against a few pepole.